Are NLS foods really that good?

[Pacco]

I would say that the keeping of marine fish long term on NLS refers more to the care that Pablo seems to take in trying to produce a complete food (whether it be the cichlid formula for cichlids or other for other fish), although certainly this doesn't categorically mean that the cichlid food would produce the same differences in less demanding freshwater fish. I am sure that Pablo would agree that there are acceptable "ranges" of these nutrients/ingredients, given that he has stated you can feed other formulas to different fish with good results. However, I certainly agree with Vince that the discussions certainly do go off on tangents not necessarily related to the question/discussions at hand at times.

That being said, this is the most well balanced discussion on NLS I am yet to see, and I am happy to put my opinion forward on it.... even if my opinion got me banned on another forum.....

[RD.]

In that regard, NLS as a one stop shop with no worries about what fish you can feed it to is very convenient for the average fishkeeper. You won't go wrong using NLS - this has been my experience. However, I don't think you would go wrong using other foods either, of course depending on the food.

That is all I am trying to say

Vincent, I've said the exact same thing many times, on this forum, as well as others.

Do I believe that NLS is "heads & shoulders" above the rest, yep, and I stand by that statement.

FYI - I use the term "the rest" as in commercially made products that one can find at their local fish store.

I'm not forcing anyone to agree with my opinion, to each their own, but that's my personal opinion, which is based on

my own personal experience with this product.

With regards to the link to blackwell, the only thing that I was inferring was that there's more to the studies that you linked to on that site, than what appears by the results shown from each study performed. You agree, great, but I wanted to make sure that the rest of the members here understood that as well. I never implied that all aquaculture studies are flawed, only that you need to be able to understand what the goal of each study is, and apply that to the fish that you are personally keeping.

I'm using "you" in the general sense, so please don't consider every comment that I make to be directed at you personally, they're not, and my apologies if you felt that they were in my previous post.

Granted, growth is the primary goal of the majority of the studies, but again you are implying that growth and long term health are mutually exclusive.

Nope, not at all. What I was implying is that any study that involves food fish & growth, generally does not take into account the long term health of the fish. Why would they? These fish are raised for human consumption, not life long pets. I have also never stated that all current foods are "McDonalds" like, and one does not have to be feeding trout chow type diets to see liver damage. If you believe otherwise, that's fine with me, but many of the leading experts world-wide would disagree with you.

Here you are again not making the distinction between crude fat, lipids and the various forms of fatty acids. Excess lipids can cause liver damage. However there is a distinction to be made in terms of the quality of the "fat". Fish oil as an additive can be good or bad, depends on its composition, HUFA or PUFA, ratios etc. Absolute content is not as much an issue unless the manufacturer is "padding out" the food with poor quality oils.

Absolutely, no argument there, but when I see manufacturers going cheap in every direction possible, I'm certainly not going to expect they didn't do the same with the quality of the lipids that they've used to make up their crude fat profile. Like Craig I too can spot bull**it from a mile away, and in some cases a quick read of the ingredients label is enough to tell the tale for me.

In other situations it may just be what isn't printed on the label, which is why I brought up ash content, or what a rep attempts to pull over on me, which is why I posted that previous link. The fact that you may not use one of these foods, or mention a certain element such as ash content in your comment, doesn't mean that I can't, or won't, if I feel that it helps illustrate my point. If you feel that this is somehow hijacking a thread, or find it irritating to you personally, so be it.

It IS a big assumption that a food that can keep difficult marine fish alive and thriving, will have a similar effect on freshwater fish species. Consider this, what if the freshwater fish was already receiving a diet that was already adequate for its nutritional needs? In that case the food that was of benefit to the marine fish may have no effect at all on the freshwater species. In that sense, many resent the implication that NLS is better for their fish than something they are already using successfully. Perhaps there is very little observable difference for freshwater fish on a good diet then converted to NLS, when compared to a marine fish on a diet deficient in some essential aspect, then converted to NLS. You are comparing apples with oranges here. Of course a fish that is missing an essential nutrient is going to see great results when put on a complete diet for its nutritional profile. The key leap of faith you are asking for here is that our freshwater fish are similarly missing in some nutrient. This does not appear to be the case for many of us.

Fair enough, but consider this - what if those same elements that are potentially missing for a marine fish, or at the least not provided in sufficient quantity, or of lower quality, in a diet designed for freshwater fish, could help boost the immune system of those freshwater fish? Is it still a case of apples & oranges? Not IMO. We all know that a fish under stress, be it from aggression, breeding, poor water quality, whatever, requires a higher nutrient content than a betta that floats carelessly around in it's own 20 gallon tank. Those extra nutrients, while perhaps not required to keep a fresh water fish healthy long term, may in fact help keep them disease & illness free when other diets would not.

I can only offer up anecdotal evidence in this regards, but for myself, and the fish that I keep, this appears to be the case. I've seen, heard, and read, enough anecdotal evidence over the past few years to make me believe this is exactly what's occurring.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm simply seeing things, and perhaps everyone else is simply seeing things as well, but I don't think so.

While there are still many unknowns in the subject of ornamental fish nutrition, especially if one takes into account the thousands of various ornamental species that hobbyists keep & breed in captivity, when it comes to commercially prepared diets, IMO the best approach is to use a high quality feed that satisfies the crude requirements of all species. If that same feed satisfies certain requirements in some species, more than others, I'll consider it a bonus.

I've enjoyed your input in this discussion Vincent, thanks for taking the time to comment in such detail.

So as not to appear to be attempting to dominate, or hijack this thread, I'm going to bow out this discussion now.

Best of luck to everyone in their future fish keeping endeavours.

[steve24cro]

in my view, whether people agree or not, I'd never ever feed any fish strictly one brand or type of food. The more variety in a fishes diet the better. Similar to our own.

[Ash]

What if all the variety needed was loaded into one pellet? Remember, the ingredients lists are as big as your arm, it's not like they are only eating steak & 3 veg every night.

[steve24cro]

well thats like saying could you put all the ingredients into 1 pellet and feed it to humans. somehow i dont think so. i believe fish do need live/fresh food, or at least some of it. Fish dont eat pellets in the wild!

[Phenomena]

This is a bit out off topic. Feel free to delete.

Does anyone else find that their fish produce more poo being fed NLS than other brands?

Also, anyone else finds that NLS breaks into small particles more easily (make a lot of mess) compare to other brand of pellets?

I belive my last purchase on large fish formula was the NEW formula? It smells different than the previous one. I found my fronties don't eat as eager compare to the previous one.

No doubt NLS is good food. I've been using it for a few years but not exclusively. I don't want to eat the same food everyday. So I do the same to my fish. What happens if fish is fed exclusively for many years with one type of food? Don't they get accustomed and become picky thus don't want to eat any other food? This may not be the case with cichlids as they're pigs. But, I've heard this a lot with tank buster keepers.

Any input is appreciated.

[MoliroMan]

poo production is a good thing...it means the food was readily digested and the waste excreted. Us tropheus keepers luv to see well formed faeces ...it means the food isn't left somewhere in the intestine causing bloat or obstruction!!

I have never used the large pellets but find the 1mm don't break up at all. The smell is exactly as it is. NLS has a rather strong unique smell unlike other fish foods. What i understand is the new formula has less water in it which might explain its propensity to crumble.

I don't see what the problem is if my fish like to eat NLS exclusively. I use to buy about 10 different fish foods to add a little variety to my fish's diet. I found i was spending a lot more money of fish food in those days. Now that NLS are at more competitive prices i don't see a problem in buying a bucket of it and feeding it exclusively to all my fish. I am confident it provides a complete diet that meets all the requirements of my fish !

Dave

Ps..if u can train tankbusters to accept NLS exclusively...u have done well!!

[CThompson]

This is a bit out off topic. Feel free to delete.

Does anyone else find that their fish produce more poo being fed NLS than other brands?

Yes I find that, and I find that it also sinks, that is, it is heavier. I see this as a good thing as it strikes me as a healthier....end product.

Also, anyone else finds that NLS breaks into small particles more easily (make a lot of mess) compare to other brand of pellets?

All the NLS I put in is eaten straight away. Perhaps you are putting in too much if it has the time to sit around and break up?

I belive my last purchase on large fish formula was the NEW formula? It smells different than the previous one. I found my fronties don't eat as eager compare to the previous one.

I assume you are talking about a garlic smell. I remember RD saying that Pablo took in some research on disease prevention and garlic, and then put in 3 or 5 (can't remember which) times the minimum amount the study found to be enough to aid in disease prevention. The extra garlic can't hurt. Can't answer about your frontosa, perhaps they are still getting used to it?

No doubt NLS is good food. I've been using it for a few years but not exclusively. I don't want to eat the same food everyday. So I do the same to my fish.

That is being anthropomorphic. There is no problem in a fish getting the same food everyday - provided that food is providing ALL it needs for healthy living. As has been said many times (haven't you read?) NLS has a number of different top quality ingredients, so the net result is by feeding NLS you are in fact providing a variety of foods. Most other food brands use cheap nutrition less fillers, and seem to use often chicken blood and their feathers as a source of protein. This is not done with NLS. By feeding foods in addition to NLS you are in fact providing a decrease in the over all quality of their food iintake.

What happens if fish is fed exclusively for many years with one type of food? Don't they get accustomed and become picky thus don't want to eat any other food?

The only problem I see here is if for some reason NLS becomes unavailable here. If that was the case, I don't believe any cichlid would starve itself to death from being too fussy to no longer eat if it can't get NLS. That is for higher life forms like our children (no I don't mean kids eat NLS)

Fish eat to survive; it is our job as a hobbyist to provide food that they will get the most amount of benefit from. NLS will do this.

Craig

[RD.]

I had no plans of continuing in this thread, but I felt I best clear up the idea that something has changed in the formulas, it hasn't. The TherA formula has the mega dose of garlic, the other formulas have the same amount as they've always had.

Just a FYI - there is no "new" Large Fish formula, it's the exact same formula as in the past.

Pablo reduced the moisture content approx 2 yrs ago, across the board on all formulas.

Tropheus are swimming poop machines, no getting around that no matter what you feed, al of my fish produce a small amount of waste in my tanks compared to any other commercial food that I have used over the years.

Higher digestibilty is the reason for less waste.

HTH

[CThompson]

Lets talk sh*t!

I must say that it has been my observation that fish produce more...noticeable amounts of waste when I feed NLS than when in the past I have feed other brands.

I have put that down to NLS once ...processed, is heavier, and harder for the filters to pick up. Other brands waste seems to be a lighter product, which I would think makes it more accessible to the filter. End result - you see more of it around, if you have less water flow in your tank. My Tropheus tank is turned over 11 times per hour and I have no waste sitting around.

My observation/conclusion only, and as mentioned, I think it implies a better quality food to have a heavier (less or more no comment) end product.

Thanks for clarifying the garlic bit.

Craig

[RD.]

Craig - if you can, set up some bare bones tanks with light filtration & compare the waste produced via various brands.

I think you'll be surprised, no matter what the species. Next to improved color in their fish, less overall waste is is actually something that most people who feed NLS exclusively comment about the most.

[Nigel]

The question I would be asking Craig is what are the long term consequences.

[RD.]

The the long term consequences?

Less overall feed costs, and healthier fish.

[Nigel]

Thats just an opinion not fact.

[RD.]

Ok, I'll go crawl back under my rock now.

[Nigel]

Thank you.

[JLL]

well thats like saying could you put all the ingredients into 1 pellet and feed it to humans. somehow i dont think so. i believe fish do need live/fresh food, or at least some of it. Fish dont eat pellets in the wild!

Haven't you ever seen Soylent Green? Based on a true story

After 2 weeks my fish still don't seem keen on NLS but I will give them time, they still eat it eventually.

[Nigel]

After 2 weeks my fish still don't seem keen on NLS but I will give them time, they still eat it eventually.

I think after 2 weeks mate I would try them on something else or go back to what you where feeding them before.

[JLL]

After 2 weeks my fish still don't seem keen on NLS but I will give them time, they still eat it eventually.

I think after 2 weeks mate I would try them on something else or go back to what you where feeding them before.

They seem to be coming around to it slowly.... Besides I have over a kilo of the stuff to use!

[Bijengum]

Lets talk sh*t!

I must say that it has been my observation that fish produce more...noticeable amounts of waste when I feed NLS than when in the past I have feed other brands.

I have put that down to NLS once ...processed, is heavier, and harder for the filters to pick up. Other brands waste seems to be a lighter product, which I would think makes it more accessible to the filter. End result - you see more of it around, if you have less water flow in your tank. My Tropheus tank is turned over 11 times per hour and I have no waste sitting around.

My observation/conclusion only, and as mentioned, I think it implies a better quality food to have a heavier (less or more no comment) end product.

Thanks for clarifying the garlic bit.

Craig

I would agree with Craig that the amount of waste is more noticable. My observations are that it is heavier and does not go into suspension as easily. This is confirmed by the fact that the internal filters I have running go for much longer between cleans. I just suck the waste off the bottom when I do water changes. I also find that the water is clearer and the food is consumed much more quickly. None of it gets sucked into the filters - no time.

[oakes]

Hi,

Just a few comments re a possible change in the formula. I have been feeding my fish 1mm NLS for a couple of years now. Several months ago I bought a new container. I noticed the following couple of observations:

1. While most pellets still sank slowly a larger proportion remained floating at the surface.

2. My calvus definitely noticed a difference and spat the new pellets out. I had to continue to mix in a few of the remaining older pellets.

Most other species didn’t seem to care, and the calvus now accept them as eagerly as they used to. The only ongoing difference is that I now soak them for a few seconds before adding so that there are less ‘floaters’ that disappear into the overflow.

Cheers

Glenn

[Ash]

I just throw them at the water rather than drop them - the extra velocity seems to 99% eliminate any floaters

[Josh]

If there is more waste then wouldnt that mean that less is being digested? Assuming that you are feeding the same amounts now as you used to feed.

I have noticed the heavier waste in my Tropheus, but have never been bothered by it because, as has been said, they are poo machines

Josh

[Phenomena]

Thanks Dave & Craig for addressing my questions.

I have a different idea about the poo thing. Yes, I agree it indicates the food is more digestable. But does it also mean it has more/too much ingredients that the fish cannot absorb thus goes into excrements?

Ok, here's what I meant by the new formula. Sorry for the confusion but I found the answer. On the old label it states "fish meal", on the new one it states "herring". I thought they've changed it but here's what Pablo says

There are no major changes in the ingredients other than more accurate labeling. We did switch to Soybean Isolate since it has a higher protein content and better binding property. This enabled us to reduce the amount of wheat flour being used. We also increased the amount of spirulina, natural yeast & algae based astaxantin while decreased the moisture content to as low as 5-6% to prolong shelf life.(typical fish food contain 10% moisture).

This is a good thing because the new stock I bought disintegrate less than the old one = less moisture content.

The smeels are definitely different. Maybe because of the garlic. But I don't thinks it's due to the garlic that my fronties aren't as eager. I have the Thera A and the ones that dislike the Large Fish Formula, like the Thera A. Anyway, I don't need a definite answer on this. I merely mentioned it.

Yeah Dave, I'm lucky enough to have all my tankbusters eat pellets.

BTW, it's best to get a sample or buy the food in a small quantity and try it yourself. Then you can decide whether it's good or bad. It doesn't cost that much these days. Also, doesn't it come with money back guarantee? (I wonder why it's not mentioned on this thread? or I missed it, damn it's a long thread )

[pablo]

All the formulas have not changed in the last 5 years, except for the reduction in moisture, an increase in the percentage of spirulina and natural color enhancer.

FYI, there were 2 scientific studies done involving NLS and other fish foods. One was by a group of Singapore veternarians on 20 fish foods. This report was sent to me by Apollo Aquarium, and at the time I sent it to Clarry Wharton (Ex OSI imports owner). For political reasons, it was not allowed to be publicized. Another study was done by The Unversity of Florida also involved NLS. Although the lecture was presented on 2001 marine ornamental conference, again for political reasons it was not published. I am not too sure you are going to find any scientific community that will ever take on the study on fish food for obvious reason $$$.

So as imperfect of a experiment as it may be, the only avenue left is for the hobbyists to find out for themselve whether a product is good or bad. If a forum is open minded there will be no censorship and everyone should allow to speak freely. In the end truth will always prevail.

Hopefully, this will be my only post to clarify some confusion not to be seen as advertizing of my products.

Pablo Tepoot