Are NLS foods really that good?

[YeW]

Hi Richard -

again without commenting on the specific effects on NLS. I think you'll find it hard to suggest that other factors eg: more settled fish, change in dominance, breeding dress, better photo conditions etc might not also be a factor in the change you note above.

[fiona]

Have to agree with YeW here. Too many variables to impute causality.

[malrift]

I too am an NLS convert I used to feed nothing but sera and out of interest one day tried NLS cichlid and couldn't beleive the results I had a lot of tropheus at the time that loved it. Now all my fish are fed it from fry growth through to full grown including bn.s althoough they do get algae wafers when small.

by the way have been keeping and breeding fish since I was 5 years old and now am 34 and this has been the best my fish have ever bred since I have been feeding NLS

[Ash]

Fish food tiral on QLD cichlid

A bit more scientific perhaps? not perfect, but it's a pretty good trial

[waruna]

Here's a thread I came across a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.cyphos.com/forums/showthread.ph...age=1&pp=10

As you can see, feeding NLS did have an affect on the overall health and colour, and I clearly remember noticing improvements in my fish when I started using NLS in 2003, they were in exactly the same conditions, my dom males showed much more colour and energy. I was more impressed with the conditions of my sub dominant males; they looked paler and were more susceptible to disease before I converted to NLS.

This was the whole reason I started selling this food.

Waruna

[RD.]

Any idea how many feed trials Pablo has ran over the past 10+ years?

One has to look at more than just their fishes color to grasp how much of a difference there can be between various feeds, be it flakes, or pellets.

Growth rates need to be taken into consideration, digestibility of each feed, and in the case of ornamental species kept in the home aquarium, longevity. There is much more to keeping a fish healthy, than just getting them to produce good color, or for that matter, good growth.

If growth is the main criteria in your feed trial, a cheap bulk trout chow will produce superior results compared to many of the commercial feeds found at your LFS. Of course your fish will also suffer from liver damage, even as young fry, due to the high lipid (fat) content found in this type of feed. Sure high protein & high lipid levels will ensure fast growth, but at what cost to the fish? You can read more about the effects of such a diet in the following thread: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=77303

If cost is an issue (it usually is) then one needs to take a very close look at the feed conversion rates, which most hobbyists fail to do. As an example of just how important this can be, here's a quote from a hobbyist who has a BSc in aquaculture & a MSc in aquacultural engineering.

At West Coast Fishculture, I was in charge of feeding 3.5 million smolts & in the four years I was there, the feed conversions (how many KG feed to produce 1 KG of fish mass) went from about 3:1 down to 1.17 to 1. On my own site, we actually achieved a 1 to 1 feed conversion ratio (FCR). Feeding less, but using underwater cameras to minimize feed wastage, we were able to grow the fish just as fast or faster but with only a third the amount of food. That translated to a $370,000 feed bill savings in my last year there.

That same hobbyist who's quoted above has also ran his own feed trials, and now feeds NLS exclusively in all of his tanks, freshwater, as well as salt water.

Obviously the average hobbyist isn't going to spend, or waste, hundreds of thousands of dollars per year if their feed is poorly digested, but even for the average hobbyist with only 1-3 tanks the savings can be substantial between a high quality easily digested food, and one that has only fair to poor digestibility. Many hobbyists won't even notice the difference, but when you start running a few thousand gallons worth of tanks, with most of them being bare bones tanks, the excessive waste build up from one food to the next is not only quite apparent, the cost difference can be staggering over the course of a single year, let alone a lifetime of feeding your fish.

This is common knowledge in the aquaculture circles, and is the exact reason why there isn't a single commercial fish operation in North America (if not the world?) that feeds flake food. Also, flake food by nature is very thin, absorbs water very quickly, and while doing so leaches out much of the water soluble vitamins in the food. According to aquatic animal nutritionist Dr. Juli-Anne Royes Russo "at least 65% of the vitamin C is leached into the water after 90 seconds". (Aquarium Fish Magazine - Sept 2005)

Her credentials can be found here: http://www.hswri.org/research/scientistDisplay.cfm?sciID=66

Depending on the brand of flakes, the potential for vitamin leaching can be even more drastic. One had also best take into account the amount of vitamins present in each brand BEFORE those flakes are placed into your tank.

Yes, NLS also sells flake food, but due to the potential for insufficient nutrient intake by larger fish (not to mention how messy flakes can be with larger species), I never recommend it for any species of fish over 2-3". The creator of NLS will state the same thing, and actually has a CAUTION warning in big bold print so consumers can clearly understand that his flakes are only suitable for smaller species.

It's not that flakes can't provide the same amount of nutrition as a pellet feed, it's that in comparison to pellet feed, it takes a massive quantity of flakes to do this. This applies to all brands of flake food. (some much more than others)

Take an 80 gram container of NLS pellets, and compare that container size to a 90 gram container of NLS flakes. The flake food container only holds 10 grams more in food, but is approx 5 times the size!

For myself, with the exception of a few brands that are excessively high in low cost grain content (I simply refuse to feed that crapola to my fish), I've tried just about every food on the market, and I've yet to find anything even remotely close to the results I've seen when using NLS exclusively. I began using NLS in all of my tanks in Oct. 2003 (approx 80-90%), and since the latter part of 2004 I've been feeding NLS exclusively. This was before I began importing this food into Canada, so I had no vested interest in the product at that time.

Now if you want to get serious about feed trials, forget about fresh water fish, even feeble minded people can manage to keep most fresh water species alive long term. The true acid test of any commercial food is with marine fish, and this is where NLS shows its true potential. Take a read of the info in the link below, and the pics of the fish.

http://www.newlife.ipbhost.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=66

No other rep or manufacturer is going to come in here & make claims about keeping fish such as Moorish Idol, Rock Beauty, Achilles Tang, Trimaculatus Angels, and Philippine Regal Angels alive & thriving long term on an exclusive diet of their commercial feed.

They won't make those claims, because they simply cannot. Ask the other manufacturers to show you a tank full of marine species such as Pablo keeps that have been eating their pellets/flakes exclusively, and thriving, for 5-10 years.

Good luck .......

As it is, Pablo keeps species that even to this day marine enthusiasts will argue can not be kept long term in captivity due to their specialized diet in the wild. Whilst these reefers are arguing about what can, and cannot be done, Pablo is already doing it.

So please continue with these feed trials, the results will speak for themselves.

RD

[Ash]

Thanks for going to the effort of writing all that RD, but I think the point of this thread was more about independant feed trials & information.

A lot of people simply refuse to trust the word of anyone affiliated with a fish food company, regardless of circumstances - this goes the same for a lot of products outside the aquarium would too of course.

I thought I'd posted my experiences in this thread already but skimming back it appears not.

I'll break opservations up into a few different species....

Severums: Growth rate seems slower compared to a previous higher protein product, though colour in young specimens is improved. - Note fish not raised from same batch, so means didly squat.

Red devils: No difference noticed whatsoever

Synspilum: Orange colour over rear 1/2 of adult fish became more of a bright copper. Young fish raised exclusively on NLS since birth (except for first week with BBS) have developed colour younger/smaller than their parents raised on whatever their breeder raised them on (ie: comparing my fry to the same size of their parents when purchased from a LFS) - again note fish not raised from same batch, so means didly squat.

Electric yellows: No difference noticed, though they were 1/2 fed NLS from the breeder I purchased them off. Out of the local fish the male improved to the point of being almost indistiguishable from the good stock from the breeder, the female hasn't improved. Could be just the male assuming Alpha status in the tank?

Texas: no difference noticed

Overall: less losses, though that could be a function of luck or my experience/methods improving with time. buying in bulk = almost same price as previous brand

I could possibly perform a trial using the sort of critera Dave (YeW) listed in his 1st post back on pg1 at a later date when I get more tanks (hoping to get a rack in the next few months)

[YeW]

I think it's also a little unfair to single out NLS. There are lots of claims about lots of different foods. I think an independant trial of most of the commercially available foods would be a useful thing. We could contact Choice magazine - they normally do this kind of thing. I have a contact there who's written about fish - if people are interested in signing up to some kind of joint letter?

[Ash]

that link I posted before on QLD cichlid has 5/6 foods in it, but the trial is incomplete by the looks of it.

[Nigel]

I think it's also a little unfair to single out NLS. There are lots of claims about lots of different foods. I think an independant trial of most of the commercially available foods would be a useful thing. We could contact Choice magazine - they normally do this kind of thing. I have a contact there who's written about fish - if people are interested in signing up to some kind of joint letter?

That sounds like the most sensible approach to this that I have heard so far. I don't agree with you on many things Dave but I must admit on this I do.

[parrdog]

I know I have already posted in this thread and other times but I just wanted to say that I believe the hype around this product is real. I think this food is fantastic, I have had nothing but excellent results with all the fish that I have fed this food to. I would solely feed this food to any fish.

Just for interst sake I have fed this food to Tropheus, Tetras, Rainbows, Cats, Aulonocara, Frontosa and many other Haps. They have all thrived on it .

Jamie.

[RD.]

Ash - The thread on CF that I linked to involved just that, an independent study that was undertaken by some of the leading experts in the field of fish nutrition & nutritional disorders. In that study they also compared the nutritional aspects between pellets and flakes, with pellets being more nutrient dense, and more stable in water. That was my initial point with regards to the feed trial that you linked to, it's a no brainer as to which formula is going to win, that being the NLS Growth.

Why not find an independent lab that can undertake a long term feed trial involving NLS as well as an assortment of 10 of the top various fish growth/fry formulas on the market? The test could involve color, growth, digestibility, and a necropsy performed on random test subjects before, and after the study period concludes.

If Choice magazine can line up such a study, through an independent lab that has no connection to the fish food industry, I'd certainly be all for that, as I know Pablo would.

I can post testimonials about NLS from hobbyists & breeders until I'm blue in the face, but I think that it's high time that some scientists got involved & put this debate to rest once & for all. Sound good?

[waruna]

Sounds great! I'm for it.

“You may fool all the people some of the time, you can even fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.” AL

Waruna

[CThompson]

RD,

I already realise what you have referred to above in that you can feed less NLS to fish and have the fish still stay in good condition, thus saving money.

But what I would like to know is how you come to the conclusion of how much is enough?

I feed NLS to all my fish, and whether I feed, a double amount or a half amount, the fish are just as keen. So how do I know what the minimum amount is to cut down on costs?

My Tropheus tank for example, where I have adult fish down to newly spat fry (50+ fish in total), I put some NLS through a pepper grinder, and also feed normal sized pellets, to cater for both fish sizes. Due to the size of NLS once it has been through the pepper grinder causing it to more float than sink, and my wanting to get all the food down to the fish in one hit (so the young can get their feed while the feeding frenzy is underway - lessening their chances of being eaten themselves), I put the NLS (pepper grinded and full sized) into a small container, and wet it with tank water swill it around in the container and dunk the container in the tank. In this brief dunking, I have Tropheus entering the container (believe it or not) in their eagerness to eat. I can't use fish behaviour as a determinate as to the hunger/need for food, when I know the fish simply can't be THAT hungry. In addition, every time I walk near the tank, the fish are right at the face of the tank looking for another feed even if I fed them 15 minutes before.

With my mbuna, I have made a concentrated effort to cut down on food, feeding twice a day instead of three times, and they look the same to me. How do I know I am still feeding more than I need?

A lot of Africans will grow to a larger size in our tanks that they do in nature. This is due to their having access to more protein in our tanks than they do in the lakes. I’m already a convert to NLS as you’d know, but I am sure that if I put more NLS in my fish tanks, my fish will grow larger in my tanks than they do in the wild, which I don’t’ see as a good thing as I know it is not what nature intended (not that nature intended fish in fish tanks).

My goal is to feed what I need to, and not more than I need to, not only to save money (most importantly), but to try and make sure my fish’s size doesn’t exceed their nature intended size.

How do you minimise your amount of NLS feeding, while still knowing the fish are not being underfeed?

Craig

[RD.]

Craig - I use a measured kitchen tool, 1 tsp. 1/2 tsp, etc. I then monitor the fish, if they look a bit chubby, I cut back, if they look a bit skinny, I add more. It doesn't have to be complicated, just look at their mid section, with most fish if they start putting on excess weight it will show there first.

Tropheus are pigs, and I suspect that if given the chance they would gorge themselves to death. IMO it's always best to feed a bit on the light side, than offer too much at any given feeding session. Keeping fish in various stages of the growth cycle in the same tank tends to complicate things a bit more, as does keeping mixed species where one species is a very aggressive feeder, and others aren't. I feed my adults once a day & toss enough food in (sometimes mixing pellet sizes) directly in front of the output of my AC filters so that everyone gets their fair share. The greedy fish tend to come to the surface & grab everything that they can manage to stuff in their mouths, the less aggressive feeders hit the sand and get just as much, sometimes even more. Works for me .....

[Palpatine]

Someone shoot pablo for overstocking a tank that badly. Yes its colourful but it looks awful

[Ash]

For those of you who have never seen Pablo's 2000 gallon marine tank.

This little show tank is approx 10ft long, 8ft deep, and 4ft high.

To me it appears they're all crowed at the front, presumably at feeding time, making it look more heavily stocked than it really is. geez it's a 10x8x4!

[RD.]

Umm, yeah, it's a rather large tank, that's ran off of two 2500 gallon resevoirs.

This is what it looks like at feeding time .........

Some people might say they have the same enthusiasm for food as an African cichlid.

Craig - IMO the wild caught T. moorii Kambwimba shown below is the form that one should aim for in their fish. No pinched in belly, yet not stuffed looking either. This fish is also fed NLS Cichlid formula exclusively.

[KillieOrCory]

RD,

I already realise what you have referred to above in that you can feed less NLS to fish and have the fish still stay in good condition, thus saving money.

But what I would like to know is how you come to the conclusion of how much is enough?

I feed NLS to all my fish, and whether I feed, a double amount or a half amount, the fish are just as keen. So how do I know what the minimum amount is to cut down on costs?

How do you minimise your amount of NLS feeding, while still knowing the fish are not being underfeed?

Craig

Hi Craig and all,

First of let me say to date I have not used NSL to feed my fish, though I have a few observations that might or might not be usefull in trying to figure out how you can reduce feeding.

First of all, you would not want to reduce feeding in fry and sub-adult fish; as you'd know it will effect their physiological processes as they are putting on size and maturing. Which will effect the eventual size, colour and breeding potential that the fish might potentially achieve.

So in a tank that has mix of fry, juveniles and adults I would personally try to avoid reducing feeding.

In an adult fish only tank however, it is a completely different ball game. In my opinion (which means nothing really!!) adult fish benefit from reduced feeding, in maintaining health, and in getting into breeding condition. Even the amount of feed provided can induce a species to breed.

Though the reduced feeding I am talking about is giving your fish no food days, as oppose to feeding reduced amount of feed everyday! Of course all fish species are different and one should know the behaviour and able to asses the health of their fish when changing your feeding regimen and revert back to what you were doing if it is not working.

My fish, get upto 2 to 3 no food days but on all other days I feed them well To breed some tricky species I give them 3 no food days a week for about 4-6 weeks and then start feeding them everyday, which quite often triggers breeding, not unlike drop in water level, temperature tricks etc.

As I said, I am yet to try NSL on my fish but I have no doubt it is a very high quality fish feed. Currently I use a granular food that I find very useful for my purposes. When I got really busy in the last 6-8 months I have raised batches of fry to adult feeding only this food (in various sizes) from hatching to adulthood. The fish grew really well, great size and colour, and breed very well as well. So well infact I cannot tell much difference in performance to batches I raised with varied live food diet (BBS, daphnia, blackworms) with occasional flake supplement. But still I will not recommend for anyone to do what I have been doing and just feed your fish a single food no matter how good it might appear, even though the food I've been using has been great! The brandname is witheld to protect the innocent (and irrelevant to the point I am trying to make!)

Just think of the behavioural characteristics of all of your fish. Through environmental and physiological constraints or lack there of, the fish we keep in our tanks have developed their own feeding behaviour. I find feeding varied food to my fish beneficial not purely from nutritional point of view, but also it makes my fish experience and display different feeding behaviours, which is quite important for me for my fishes well being. Simple things like feeding pellets that float, pellets that sink, flakes etc. just variation, help the fishes well being I believe. Again I have to emphasise this is my opinion, which means nothing in grand scheme of things.

Also, the sort of studies that are being suggested would be of great benefit to the hobby; but in reality (I think) they will not eventuate. I work in biological sciences and I helped design and worked in many studies involving living subjects and with set objectives. The sort of study that needs to be conducted; if it is going to be of any value at all, needs to be well designed, protocols in place and have full cooperation of all the parties involved. It will cost a bucket, will take long time and the results will provide only negligable benefits to the companies involved bottom line. Just face it the majority of the fish keeping public:

1. Do not have more than 1 tank (Majority of the fish food consumers)
2. Do not read the label as to what is in the food they are buying
3. They'll listen to the LFS staff in what they buy
4. If there is a cheaper option they'll go for it
5. Even if you write on the label: "Scientifically proven to perform better than A, B & C brands" people either won't read it or won't put much value in the statement
6. Most advanced hobbyist will still continue doing what they are doing: culturing and feeding live food, preparing home frozen food mixtures etc.

Caveat: Again the above is my opinion

Also a single stand alone study, no matter how brilliant it is still a single study and unless get confirmed by subsequent studies, might always be regarded as an anomaly until the results are duplicated.

Oops! I didn't mean to bore you all!

[CThompson]

Someone shoot pablo for overstocking a tank that badly. Yes its colourful but it looks awful

I look at the fish shown in the photos, and I see a tank full of healthy looking fish, swimming in a clean tank.

Anybody who thinks it is over crowded hasn’t looked to see the tanks dimensions, nor taken into consideration a person like Pablo will know how to put a filtration system together.

And that’s before you consider how long the fish have been living in this tank. Perhaps you haven’t read about it?

I’ve seen smaller hobbyists tanks proportionally MUCH higher stocked than this tank.

Has the tank got too many fish? If so, where are there problems with the fish? If you still think that the tank looks awful, you ort to go away and reconsider your standards.

Thanks for the comments and photos RD, I am already following more or less what you have discribed -I just thought there may have been further to what I am already doing that you could inform me of.

The photo was a good idea, gives a sort of base line

Craig

[CThompson]

Serkan,

That was a brilliant read. You are obviously very switched on, and your input was fully read and understood, both what was said, and your intelligence was most evident.

The only comment I would come back to you on a couple of points;

But still I will not recommend for anyone to do what I have been doing and just feed your fish a single food no matter how good it might appear, even though the food I've been using has been great!

I would have agreed with this, before NLS came along. NLS may be one food, but it is comprised of a variety of top quality ingredients, so in feeding NLS you are in fact provided dietary variety. What’s more I believe what is in it, is what is said is in it (from the ultimate sceptic).

Feeding NLS does not stop me feeding live or home made frozen food, but that said, I believe that one can feed NLS exclusivley as the only dry food with no issues.

I know what is in NLS is good, and will not hurt, where as if I use other brands of dry food, I know they use cheap nutrition-less fillers, and can use a source of protein such as chicken blood and feathers, which is a cheap source of a poor quality protein. I think if you use a variety of dry foods, with one of them being NLS, you will be lessening your fish's overall dietary intake, and you'll do more good than harm if you feed NLS as the exclusive dry food for your fish.

From a personal perspective, I don’t like having “no food days”. I don’t know what species you are referring to when you say they can be prompted into breeding via this method (and I’m sure you have had success with this so it is no a criticism on what you shared with us/me), but a comment that all my fish breed freely and often, so I would have no benefit from it.

First of all, you would not want to reduce feeding in fry and sub-adult fish; as you'd know it will affect their physiological processes as they are putting on size and maturing. Which will effect the eventual size, colour and breeding potential that the fish might potentially achieve.

This was a very pertinent comment. I love it when I get such a well thought out reply. Thanks for the effort.

Craig

[Neil]

Pablo needs a pat on the back for creating such a marvilous enviroment. It makes me want to convert (oh perrish the thought).I keep comming back to veiw these pics . Fish five and ten years old is no accident .

I must admit knowing when to stop feeding NLS is a dilema every one who uses N.L.S. will face . I was working rotating shifts so the feeding was sparodic since Ive come back to normal hours the feeding reigime is normal 2 times a day I still use varied brands but N.L.S. sends them into a frenzied scramble all sizes and all species every feed with nothing left on the floor of the tank. As against the other pellets that decompose on the floor and even the bristlenose dont clean up

These are just observations Ive made in the transition between finishing off the last of the other pellets.The appearance of the fish is fuller and more colourfull ,but beforehand with up 3-4 days of fast this can overruled as an anomolly.

What RD has said about ratios of kilos of food to kilos flesh is really an indication of their abillity to feed the right amount.

So who here is aware of the weight of their fish ?

We all can read the label to tell how much they have eaten this could sort the debate once and for all. Mind you could just take the 1:1 and aim to be frugal

Neil

[Ash]

I've heard of the no food days thing for adult fish, but not in relation to conditioning for breeding though it does make sense for some species - just like a wet season/dry season water change schedule.

I agree with Craig, brilliant read Serkan

[RD.]

Serkan, you make some excellent points, a couple of which I would like to address.

The sort of study that needs to be conducted; if it is going to be of any value at all, needs to be well designed, protocols in place and have full cooperation of all the parties involved. It will cost a bucket, will take long time and the results will provide only negligable benefits to the companies involved bottom line.

There's the rub, no independent lab will likely ever touch such a study due to the politics involved. With the exception of Pablo Tepoot, I seriously doubt that any major fish food manufacturer would be willing to put their money where their mouth is,and take part is such a study. Pablo would gladly fund such a feed trial, but by doing so some would consider the results to be tainted. There actually have been studies done comparing NLS with various other brands, as well as at least one species natural diet (as best as it could be supplied), but those results will never be made public due to the politics involved in this industry, and any study associated with it. Sadly, in the end it always boils down to the same thing, money. The last thing that anyone wants is their private or public funding to dry up, or a large portion of their sponsors to kiss them good bye. In the grand scheme of things such a study wouldn't be that costly, nor would it be that difficult to establish certain areas that are obviously pro or con for each formula. These types of studies have taken place for years, with sophisticated equipment comparing color, growth, digestibilty via waste output, and in some cases organ damage. Nothing new here, it's all been done in many labs world-wide, with various fish food formulations.

Can it be done, yes, easily. Will it be done, I seriously doubt it.

You said:

Most advanced hobbyist will still continue doing what they are doing: culturing and feeding live food, preparing home frozen food mixtures etc.

I wouldn't be so certain about that. I've seen a huge drift over the past few years with regards to feeding fish, with the advanced hobbyists leading the way. Hobbyists that have been keeping & breeding fish for 20+ years, now switching from live & frozen, to NLS. The reason is simple, they found an easier way to get better results compared to what they had been previously using for all these years. Will everyone convert to this line of thinking, no, but as little as 2 years ago there was next to no one in this part of the world that had even heard of NLS, let alone used it, and now there are hundreds of people locally who either feed it exclusively in all of their tanks, or use it as their main staple. (both freshwater & marine) I didn't convert these people from their previous ways, they gave it a go, and the results spoke for themselves. Quite frankly many of these hobbyists discounted much of what myself & others had to say, and I believe tried the food out of curiosity, just to see if there was any truth at all to the 'hype' that surrounds this product. The ironic part is that it's the very people that use this food that have created the hype, not Pablo, and not me.

The world is no longer flat, and for those with an open mind there's a whole new level of fish keeping that can now be experienced without the muss & fuss of culturing live foods, or adding pollution to their tank water with frozen. Live foods will always have their place in this hobby, as they should, but the commercial fish food industry has come a long ways in the past decade & I firmly believe that this next decade will prove to be one where many hobbyists, advanced, entry level, and everyone in between will be taking a closer look at exactly what goes into their fish, which food provides more bang for the buck, and which offers more convenience. Ten to fifteen years ago many advanced hobbyists would have laughed in your face if you suggested that one day there would be fish keepers from around the globe conversing about ornamental fish on forums found on the WWW.

Funny how quickly things can change. Now even entry level hobbyists are joining fish forums & seeking advice, sometimes before they even set their first tank up. And if/when they get bored of that set up, they can sell it on eBay! lol

I find feeding varied food to my fish beneficial not purely from nutritional point of view, but also it makes my fish experience and display different feeding behaviours, which is quite important for me for my fishes well being. Simple things like feeding pellets that float, pellets that sink, flakes etc. just variation, help the fishes well being I believe.

Sorry, but you lost me there. Had you suggested that feeding live foods to a fish classified as a carnivore somehow satisfied the fishes need to hunt down its prey, I would have better appreciated your point of view, but I don't believe for a second that feeding a variation in sinking/floating pellets, or flakes, has anything to do the well being of a fish. Are certain types of food better suited for certain species, absolutely, surface feeders are designed by nature to feed at the surface, just as most predators are designed to feed straight on, no argument there, but that's an easy fix, NLS makes sinking wafers, sinking pellets, floating pellets, as well as flakes.

Nutrition wise, well, I've yet to have anyone explain to me exactly what is found in their 'wide variety' of foods, that is not found in a high quality commercial product such as NLS. Are there amino acids missing, certain types of fatty acids, vitamins or trace minerals? Seriously, I'd like to know what my fish are missing out on? On the flip side, I can & have shown many people what their multiple foods were lacking in, or were overly abundant in (such as low cost grain fillers) compared to my single food.

I'm certainly not attempting to tell anyone how to feed their fish, to each their own, but I honestly believe that there are now commercial products that are equal to, and in many cases much better, than any wide variety that a hobbyist can offer to their fish.

[Nigel]

To better facilitate discussions - ACE is happy to add the aforementioned NLS forum site to our list of allowable external links.

Feel free to link to discussions at that site in this thread.

As long as everyone understand that most of the views expressed on there are by people that have a commercial interest in NSL. Dave I thought this forum was supposed to be fair and unbiased.