monlunn Posted July 3, 2005 Author Share Posted July 3, 2005 Hi Andy, So are you suggesting that the fish I have been shown to be the parents is not the case. I consider myself a serious breeder who takes pride in what I breed. If I am housing a fish that should not be being bred I would like to know. I have clarified the breeders I have are icebergs. However there seems to be alot of doubt over both species White Knights and icebergs. You talk to some people they say they have White knights, you look at them and they look like icebergs and vice versa. So are either of these species or more to the point the fish I have a species at all ?...... Seeing as the ones I have are prolific breeder I have just put them in with my Cuckoo catfish as hosts, hopefully this works out. I know this is started quite a debate but really we need to get to the bottom of it, it's in the best interest of the hobby/industry. Best Regards Monique Lunn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckmeister Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Monique, The White Knights are nothing like the fish you have. They are a white fish with black eyes. Its quite well known that it is supposed to be a line bred varient from Florida. If people selling your fish are labelling them White Knights then they are not labelling their fish properly. I cant really comment on what you have, I'm sorry They may very well be Icebergs but a fish that only sells with a common name and not a locality can run into ID problems in the long term. People closer to your side of the country would be more in touch with the problem at hand but I will say if they came from the person that was selling hybrid strigatus and those crossed electric yellow things, I cant remember what they were off the top of my head then there would be a question mark over them IMO Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Morelia Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 I find it kind of amusing how as soon as an unusual fish appears, everyone screams "HYBRID !!!!" I think most fish breeders seriously need to get some basic knowledge of genetics, with the amount of carryings-on about hybrids and mutations that goes on here. Mutations happen, it's a fact. For an example, look how many mutations there are of Cockatiels i couldn't even hazard a guess as to the total number of individual mutations. And they are all totally pure Nymphicus hollandicus. It should probably also be taken into consideration the amount of inbreeding that is necessary to get a new mutation started from just one animal, i'm sure this isn't going to help the shape of the animals. Getting a new mutation is effectively a form of line breeding, because you will have to use some animals which are carrying the gene, but have bad shape, etc., because there's no alternative. Once you outcross to wild type stock over many generations, it would be possible to get back to a 'proper' shape, but how many people outcross their fish mutations ? and you wonder why they are often a different shape to the wild types Now i'm not saying they aren't hybrids, just that there is a strong possibility they aren't and it has hardly been considered. Most of you have been too busy trying to prove they are hybrids, or else just bleating to everyone that they are. It does complicate matters that there seems to be three or more distinct mutations, from what appear to be true albino with no pigment (well almost, a la griffin's post), then there is the leucistic with black eyes (which to me seems far more likely a line bred variant than the other two) and then you have what appears to be a simple leucistic, the pale blues. Those demanding scientific names and locations, you do not seem to understand that a mutation in a species does not make it a new species ! and it's far more likely the original mutants are bred in someone's tank rather than collected from a lake The proper classification would be something like Sciaenochromis fryeri "Albino Mutation" I don't claim to know a lot about genetics, just what i have learned from a few years of breeding cockatiels. I urge you all to stop arguing about it and go educate yourselves about basic genetics to some extent and to stop assuming. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanceswithDingoes Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 I know how we can fix this, brothers and sisters, ye take the little fishies and tie it to a large chair on a lever. Then ye dunk the fish into the stream and hold it there. If it be pure it will stay at the bottom and drown, but if it have the devil in em it will surely float and we can burn it at the stake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burek Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Lol? >_^ Crazy Bro How can a fish Drown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanceswithDingoes Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Your showing your age Daniel (or lack of) Go away and read Arthur Miller's "The Crucible" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burek Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Lmao..I dont read books, Boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monlunn Posted July 4, 2005 Author Share Posted July 4, 2005 This has been my argument all along but no one seems to agree. I have made the point time and time again about the possibility of mutations ect ect. All I want is some answers and trying to get those is obviously turning out to be alot more difficult than first thought. Cheers Monique Lunn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrseby Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 mutation I find it kind of amusing how as soon as an unusual fish appears, everyone screams "HYBRID !!!!" THATS CAUSE IN THIS CASE THEY ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! white knight, albino etc MUTT MUTT MUTT etc .. I ask why do we not just call these MUTTS African flowerhorns After all thats what they are ...xxxxxxxx These mutts throw so many diff variations in their offspring that its like mmmm lets see (LIKE A BOX OF CHOCOLATES) HAHAHAHAH ROFL HAHAH GUYS REALLY ..don't u get the message !!! why are we still arguing with this issue !!! why do people keep defending these mutts ... maybe those can also start the ..flowerhorn/red parot and now white knite aca albino ETC ETC mutt apreciation society hahahahahah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanceswithDingoes Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 There are angelfish that are now completely orange, must be colourfed, cant possibly be orange because there arent completely orange fish in the wild. That is of course if you ignore the 9 years of selective breeding that have gone into creating an all-orange angelfish. The iceberg fryeri is a classic example of selecting lighter fish or fish with a wider blaze and line breeding them and selecting the progeny and line breeding them, eventually you get an all whitish (pale blue) male fryeri. Besides is there any guarantee our current fish arent auhli/fryeri crosses anyway Albino fryeri (red eyes and all) are being bred at Crystal Springs in the US, these are not found in the lake as F0's (coz they get eaten first) I have no idea what Monique or anyone else has out here, the fact that they werent widely advertised indicates they werent line bred here (coz someone would yell 'eureka') so the silent introduction means they were either smuggled or hybridised, the object of creating hybrids is make a fish that looks 'sellable' and can make money, as they are NOT widely distributed would lean me more towards the smuggling angle, because no-one is going to stick their hand up and say 'Hey they are XYZ i know this coz I smuggled them in as that.' If I was the referee, I be given the fish the benefit of the doubt until hard evidence not hearsay was available. Just my 2c worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danpri Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 When I had these the fry were all the same, no variations, and looked as you would expect them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurea23 Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Story.......(true) When i was younger...... (12-13) My friend had a colony of m.auratus and p.livingstoni.... For some reason the male auratus fell in love with the p.livingstoni.... These produced fry... and their fry produced fry.....and so on The fry where always the same and very attractive mix of a melanochromis and a psedotropheus. There was no variations in the fry.... These where called auratustoni..... we both kept them. we had no knowledge of keeping pure species.... we kept and bred the fish and sold them once locally. They where all culled and lost to the hobby (thank goodness) when we knew it was wrong.... Hard thing to do at 12. my point being... one simply saying no variations in the fry means its not a hybrid is not enough for me... Maybe some of you.... I cannot name names or anything but i have been led to believe these are a mix between a lithobates (white blaze mal cich 3 P144 no 2 mumbo island) and a fryeri... And select fish line bred. I believe the breeder was not aware of the origin but this is what was said they are... Now make your own minds up.... for me i wont keep them not only cause i dont believe they are a true fryeri variant but because its not a genus i like.... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobbin4 Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Your story may be true, Mike but what dose it prove???? mrseby {MUTT ??????} What has flowerhorns got to do with the Iceberg?????so maybe danpri would be so kind to tell us where my -------Icebergs came from him to me ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 The look like a cross to me. And I think they should all be culled until info is found out about them. Just because of a few selfish people we may now have an E. Blue that will then be called a powder blue in a few years. Why people would keep them is beyond me. They arent good looking, Nobody knows what they are and they could be a threat to the hobby. So if we do see a "powder blue" varient in the near future we can say thanks to one of the people keeping them now I mean if Danpri sold them and didnt even know what they are then would that be put down to negligence or just plain stupidity? BTW I have a large F1 E.Blue (Lundu)Male so maybe i can try and counter attack these mutts!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Nice can we get a pic of him teflon? Is he the only one or is there more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Im sure there are plenty more I dont have them though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watsonboyd Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 You guys are doing great, your almost to the 100 post mark!! Keep it up !! Boyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danpri Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 Any ruling from the mods re selling these on the forum yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anchar Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 Thought this may be worth adding.. http://tropicalfishchat.net/index.php?showtopic=3400 http://tropicalfishchat.net/index.php?showtopic=3147 Andrea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 This is wearing thin, the fact is that all EB are questionable in Aus, except for a few minority pure species such as the ones Sooty was selling a year back. The fact that there is argument about it concludes that there are questions that can't be answered. I don't have a resolution or answer, because it's like trying to answer wether the chicken came before the egg. This highlights one of the main problems hybrids (in general) create. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 Im just wondering does that mean that they can not be sold on ace as no origin can be found? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngy_11 Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 What is this topic all about anyway????????????? thanks youngy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 Here, try this for a start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrseby Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 oiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii why has my post been deleted regarding these mutts is it cause mods of this forum agree in breeding and propergating XXXXX fish WHY WHY HAS MY POST BEEN DELETED AND BY WHO PLEASE EXPLAIN!!!!!!!! NOT HAPPY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViS Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Wasn't me, but I'd say that if it was anything like that post (lots of yelling etc), then I can guess why. If it contained lots of "THESE FISH ARE MUTTS!!!!!!! KILL THEM ALL AND LOCK UP THE PEOPLE BREEDING THEM" and so on (like many of your recent posts), then it probably didn't need to be in the thread, as it doesn't contribute much, and only serves to aggrivate people into arguments. I agree with you (from what I've read and researched), but I certainly don't agree with the way you express your opinions. Unfortunately, they often come across as gibberish, and most people don't take you seriously. I've read many of your posts on other forums, and most of the time you create well thought out, constructive posts. Not sure why you flick the switch on here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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