novafishy Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Mon or anyone (please give location and sientific name of this MUTT) A MUTT is being a bit harsh isn't it ? now we need an alien emoticon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 I think that is quite leniant actually - a mutt suggests (at least to me) an inter-breeding of varients of the same species (ie. MUTT dogs), where-as it isn't quite AS nasty as an inter-species hybrid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monlunn Posted June 27, 2005 Author Share Posted June 27, 2005 O.K guys I have a good friend by the name of Rob McManus he has a pair of these guys who throw the whiteknights if you are so intrigued by this fish his email address is ram2@iinet.net.au What I can't understand is the fact that you have the likes of the albino bristlenose that is a morph of the normal bristlenose but there is no questioned asked there. Why is it so hard to believe that another type of fish has thrown a slightly different type. It happens in all animals. Did you know there are only 7 true purebreed dogs. The rest have derived through crossing these breeds. After 5 generations of the cross you can apply for the breed to be classed purebreed. I just think some people need to step outside and research how many animals have been classed a breed when they have actually been formed through the recessive gene of that breed. The munchkin cat is another one, it is a mutated gene from the domestic cat. The list goes on. Anyhow email Rob I am sure he can send some picture of his pair of electric blues that produce these white knights. Monique Lunn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burek Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Mon The pics you posted..are you saying there white knights? They look more like icebergs not whitenights.. Dotn albino have Red Eyes lol? All albinos must have red eyes to be a true albino, a albino coulor fish with black eyes is not a true albino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EASTY Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Just a question how many people would think about just having them as a display fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burek Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 For display it would be ok i guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 monlunn, i dont know wether these fish are crossed or whatever but with that comment on the albinos, albinos are a recessive gene in all animals, i have never see a "white knight" of any other species? However it could be right as i know with the tangerine zebras, there was a previous PCS president breeding them and he came across a white varient of them, but it would be good if the true origin of these species was found. Its also hard to say with the pair your friend has unless we can trace their origins aswell. Just thought i'd chime in, would be good to clear this up as there is some in Perth and i was interested in getting some. Cheers Kimbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzacam Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 I'd have some for Display, but display only. They certainly are a nice looking fish IMO. Cameron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 They are a gorgeous looking fish - nobody is disputing that. MonLunn though has failed to answer most of the questions directed at her, and directed at her with good reason. On one hand you gaurantee the authenticity of the fish as a pure species recessive gene throwback. But you can't answer which species? It's not the only question still open either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViS Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Monique, I think part of the problem here is different peoples versions of what can be classed as a white knight. Pictures on the net range from a white fish with black eyes, a white fish with red eyes (john's), and a pale blue fish with black eyes (yours). I've been promised a full "exposé" including details of how these fish were produced by someone "in the know", so hang onto your seats, it could be a bumpy ride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakeyBoyR Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Settle down kids Whether the fish is a X or not doesnt change the fact that it is often a very beautiful fish. If in doubt, keep it separate from other E. Blue's. So many of our fish in Australia are questionable, I dont know why so many of you are getting your feathers ruffled over this one. Chill my fishy friends, just enjoy the fish and keep it separate until you have a more definitive answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monlunn Posted June 28, 2005 Author Share Posted June 28, 2005 Look like I said contact Rob he has a site that explains a little more. The scientific name for this so called MUTT is the Sciaenochromis fryeri Maleri "Iceberg". It occurs naturally around Maleri Island. What else do I need to say. Like I said Rob has the site with the information if you want hard proof contact him. I take great pride in breeding my fish and am extremely fussy and to have the fingered pointed is rather disturbing as there are MANY breeders out there who breed what ever whenever too make a buck, but hey what would I know. Monique Lunn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 So they ARE icebergs and not white knights? Perhaps had you said that a week ago, the animosity would have dwindled. Our main concern is that there are so many different white knights going around, and now yours are labelled icebergs? Wasn't this all a reaction to a WTB white knight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 the greatest cause for alarm of the lot here is that if the Sciaenochromis fryeri Maleri "Iceberg" is a naturally occuring fish in the lake, and there is already confusion as to whether or not it is a white knight (florida special) then how the hell is anybody meant to know what they are getting if these fish are all mislabelled? if someone was to buy white knights (misnamed iceburgs) from one source, and true white knights from another and breed them together, wouldnt that just be the start of some really cute little hybrids? i think people with these new fancy varietals need to be really careful with their naming, as this is a perfect example of how easy it is for mistakes to be made! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 A little clarifier on albinos - yes albinos have red eyes. An albino lacks the pigment melanin, throughout the whole body including the retina in the eye. (Although physiologically they must have a tiny bit of melanin somewhere in their body - whether it be in internal organs where you can't see it, or present in the skin in minute amounts so they still appear basically white - it is not possible for an animal to survive if it has no melanin whatsoever). The white fish with black eyes (which is what I had always understood to be a White Knight electric blue) is not an albino but is of an appearance that is consistent with it being a leucistic mutation - also known as "black eyed white". Other animals that exhibit this mutation include ferrets (where you can have albino ones, or you can have Black eyed whites) and tigers - "white" tigers are leucistic. The whole albino/leucistic/lutino thing gets a bit complicated and there's actually some inconsistencies as to what is described as albino and what is not. But I think I'll discuss all that another time! Can't help with the pale blue EB's though..... Cheers, Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danpri Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 You can get black eyed white Budgies, and they have a light suffusion of blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burek Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Mon How can a Whitenight be called a iceberg? Icebergs and White Nights are different not the same.. Icebergs are pale blue or something not white.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViS Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Ok as promised, here is some info I've been sent. I'm not saying it's true, I'm just relaying the information. Names have been removed and I'll put it in my own words. It seems these "white knights" that mon and boots have, originated in Melbourne (name of original breeder was supplied and will be called "XXXXXX" from now on). This breeder was apparently responsible for the strigatus / compressiceps hybrid several years ago as well as the caeruleus / cobalt zeb hybrid. Whether those two fish were put out on purpose or not is not for me to say (because I don't know). "XXXXXX" line bred WK for up to 3 years removing those dark ones and kept the palest. Apparently "XXXXXX" sourced his fish from asia and they were known to be Freyeri x albino Hap (which doesn't explain why boots and mon have non albino fish. You'd think their fish would throw both albino and regular fry - Do they?). True florida WK's are what you see on american sites: White(white body) Knight (night eyes or black). Once again, I'm passing on information as the source does not wish to be named. Don't ask me for the name of the original breeder either because I won't tell you as I cannot possibly confirm any of the information posted above, so don't wish to defame anyone unneccessarily. If anyone has information that disputes anything I've posted, feel free to post it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckmeister Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 My second 2 cents This is what happens when scientific names are not used and common shop names are. This wouldn't be the first discussion due to mis interpretation of an ID and locality. I've been on the wrong/right end of many a discussion in the past myself for this Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 Apparently "XXXXXX" sourced his fish from asia and they were known to be Freyeri x albino Hap (which doesn't explain why boots and mon have non albino fish. You'd think their fish would throw both albino and regular fry - Do they?). Actually, it would be possible, a couple of generations down the track, to get the fryeri x albino haps to produce albino fry 100% of the time. The albino gene is simple recessive (or has been so far in the species I know of it turning up in), so in the first generation you cross a fryeri with an albino hap and get all non-albino hybrid fish. Breed this generation with each other and you'll get 25% albino mutts. If you only breed from the albino mutts from then on you will only get albino fry from them. There may still be differences in morphology of the fry when comparing siblings (as of course there are thousands of other genes to be working on that! And who knows what's going on in a bunch of hybrids....), but they'll all be albino. Also, although having siblings in a batch of fry turn up with differences in morphology and colour can be a reason to suspect the parents are hybrids it is not a foolproof test. The more successive generations of the original cross get inbred, the more homogenous they tend to get making it harder to determine that they are mutts. Also, breeding generation after generation back to one of the original species can bring in a gene such as albino, and then bring back the original electric blue shape (for example). Done over enough generations this also gives you homogenous fry and less chance of a giveaway "oddbod" turning up in the fry. Add to that the natural variation in fry you get from pure species/locality breeding and it gets even harder.......not to mention that sometimes new mutations do turn up in pure species matings. I do agree though that heterogenity (is that a word? My brain's not working today) in a batch of fry should make the alarm bells go off and make one more cautious about the fry's parents. I think that for these deliberate crosses, people do know what they are doing (genetically, not ethically!) and they want to market a "new" fish so it would not surprise me if they did hold back their fish for a few generations of selective breeding to get a new line of fish that appears to "breed true". Cheers, Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViS Posted July 2, 2005 Share Posted July 2, 2005 Here are the pics as promised, that are going around in Melbourne that are apparently confirmed hybrids. You make up your own minds: Not sure if they are the same as what others own or not. I'm just forwarding information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danpri Posted July 2, 2005 Share Posted July 2, 2005 I think the mods better settle this one soon. These are probably the thin end of the wedge of EB hybrids and variants so ppl should be advised if these are ok to buy/sell on the A.C.E? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Salita Posted July 2, 2005 Share Posted July 2, 2005 IS that the female in the background Vis? Kind of a giveaway if it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted July 2, 2005 Share Posted July 2, 2005 I sure hope not Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViS Posted July 2, 2005 Share Posted July 2, 2005 Don't know I don't reckon, but I was told it was a strigatus x so it's possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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