Dark Morelia Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 Well i didn't think it did anyone much good debating it, so i tested it Do take into account that the heater in this tank isn't in the filter's path, if it were i think the fluctuation would be minimal (if it's not already ?) The heater is situated diagonally across the back wall of the tank. Consider the small size of the tank. If it were a 2ft, 60L, and the heater in the current, i think you'd hardly register a fluctuation. Even so, i don't think a fluctuation of 0.4ºC is going to do much harm.... I'm sure wild fish swimming through their native waters encounter much more drastic fluctuations than that. I would love to test the fluctuation in that tank with a smaller heater, but i don't have one, and i'm not buying one just to experiment. You could try it yourself with a spare small heater, a bucket, and a digital thermometer. I reckon you'll still find a fair bit of fluctuation with a tiny heater like 25watt as it will take so long to heat the water. I am planning to test it again, with the filter plum on the heater. I now think that a 300 watt heater is a bit much for a 10 litre tank, given the results, but i think anything 2ft + should be fine. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anchar Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 I agree with Craig about the "J" brand...especially the 300W ones of a few years ago. I lost count of how many we replaced through the LFS and I have never regained confidence in that brand. I use the cheap heaters because I need so many...they are pretty reliable IMO and (touch wood) I have never had any fail (get water in them yes...but not fail). I work on 1W per 1L plus some. Therefore for a 200L tank I would use the 250W heater etc. This way they are not working as hard and last longer. merjo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 I too like the stainless steel ones, but they are not suitable for marine use. I used to advocate cheap heater until the top came off one in a tank and when I stuck one hand in the tank and the other hand on the floor I got kicked half way across the room. Yes, the earth leakage did kick in but not quick enough. Cheapies often crack in water changes to when you forget to turn them off. THe probelm with Jager has been fixed and now they are probably all I would ever buy again. Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 Even so, i don't think a fluctuation of 0.4ºC is going to do much harm.... I'm sure wild fish swimming through their native waters encounter much more drastic fluctuations than that. That's true, probably greater temperature differences than that, that anyone who has swam in tropical waters will testify too. The only difference between the wild and our fish tanks is that in the wild the fish will have a choice and if it is too cold, they can move back to warmer waters (or cooler if too warm...). In our tanks, they will not have this choice, and if the temperature fluctuates constantly, who knows if this will cause long term issues with the fish. Being as our fish are cold blooded, their body’s temperature will match the water, and at the very least, I expect they will be uncomfortable, and I wonder if this could possibly lead to stress. With some species of Tangs, it is universally accepted that stress can lead to bloat. While I’m not saying temp fluctuations will be directly contributing to bloat, in giving advice on the SCP, I think you have to advise with all things in consideration, and if temperature fluctuations can be avoided by matching a heater’s capacity with a tanks volume, there is no reason not to aim for this, when they may be a negative impact in not doing so. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Morelia Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 If temperature fluctuations can be avoided by matching a heater’s capacity with a tanks volume, there is no reason not to aim for this, when they may be a negative impact in not doing so. Craig ← Rather than pull "possible" advice out of thin air, why not do some testing of your own ? It has been observed that my 300W heater in a 10L tank produces fluctuations of 0.4ºC. No tests have been done on larger volume tanks or with smaller capacity heaters, or even different brands of heaters ! That's not much data to go sprouting 'advice' from. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bru55el Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Just wondering if anybody uses Sera heaters? I have been running 3 x 300W models for the last 2 years and never had a problem with them. Not even any condensation inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Andy I dont think Craig is out to prove you wrong, and I agree with him in this point Yes you can have too much power in heater. What happens if the thermostat sticks and you have a 300 watt heater in say a 2’ tank? Sure, your tests prove that in a normal environment a 300W heater will heat a tank way smaller than it is designed to, but I dont think you've tested the worst case scenario yet. Rather than pull "possible" advice out of thin air, why not do some testing of your own ? Please be careful how you word things here, at first glance it seems you are trying to stir the pot Either way, I can see no good reason for wanting to use a bigger heater than recommended. I'd go a bit oversized, but not to the extent that you are testing here. I feel (yes, that's a feeling and NOT the results of a test) that using a heater that big may cost more to run and would also look stupid. But you should feel free to use them in your fishroom if you feel the need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 You think you have all the knowledge that you’ll gain from one “experiment”. At best the “experiment" would at have been flawed. One test does not prove anything, and if it did prove anything, it would fall on the side of the advice I was giving as you experienced temperature fluctuations - as I said to expect. Others are saying; I work on 1W per 1L Even though this is a rule of thumb, it you take this into account it means you can put more watts than is required in a tank. So others agree with the principles of my comment for such a rule to be used. People can please themselves how they run their tanks, at worst, my advice won’t hurt. At worst your advice might kill. Come back to me in 20 years time when you have some maturity and experience behind you. As to your suggestion of my doing some testing of my own, I’ve had fish for longer than you’ve been alive, I think I can rely on some experience don’t you? I see you’ve highlighted quotes from me. If you’re going to quote somebody, don’t alter their words. Those words you choose to highlight “if” and “may” implying that I had some sort of uncertainty, were intentionally used. Keep pulling on that rip cord, you might get it yet. Don’t bother posting back to me as I won’t be reading any further input from you on this topic. You obviously can’t have debate on a topic of interest to both of us without being personal. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAZ Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 Well said Craig, I couldn't have put it better. 5 minutes in the hobby - and another expert. WAZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Morelia Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 You think you have all the knowledge that you’ll gain from one “experiment”. At best the “experiment" would at have been flawed. One test does not prove anything, and if it did prove anything, it would fall on the side of the advice I was giving as you experienced temperature fluctuations - as I said to expect. Umm.. I thought I just said something to the effect of more experiments are necessary before advice given, didn't I ? It has been observed that my 300W heater in a 10L tank produces fluctuations of 0.4ºC. No tests have been done on larger volume tanks or with smaller capacity heaters, or even different brands of heaters ! That's not much data to go sprouting 'advice' from. People can please themselves how they run their tanks, at worst, my advice won’t hurt. At worst your advice might kill. No, At worst your advice could lead to inefficient heating, and possibly even greater fluctuations than with a large heater, who knows ? You certainly don't, and neither do I. Obviously more testing is required. I recall stating some facts, test results, and a few of my opinions, which people can take any way they want. If people are stupid enough to take everything they read on the internet as solid, stand-alone advice without even thinking about it first, then IMO they deserve whatever the consequences are. This last sentence is not aimed at anybody in particular, so don't anyone go taking it 'personal' Come back to me in 20 years time when you have some maturity and experience behind you. As to your suggestion of my doing some testing of my own, I’ve had fish for longer than you’ve been alive, I think I can rely on some experience don’t you? Why don't you try getting off your high horse, and examining something anew, from a fresh perspective, rather than relying entirely on your experience ? You never know, it could lead to new knowledge. I see you’ve highlighted quotes from me. If you’re going to quote somebody, don’t alter their words. Those words you choose to highlight “if” and “may” implying that I had some sort of uncertainty, were intentionally used. I did not alter your words Craig, i highlighted them, as their use stood out to me. If you had no uncertainty on the matter, then why did you use those particular words ? Could it be because you have insufficient data to go advising people definitively with ? Oh dear, that wouldn't be very prudent considering your last quoted sentence in this post now would it ? You obviously can’t have debate on a topic of interest to both of us without being personal. The only reason i got cranky is this.... While I’m not saying temp fluctuations will be directly contributing to bloat, in giving advice on the SCP, I think you have to advise with all things in consideration You had the gall to tell me to take all things into consideration before advising, then you give wavering advice utilizing obviously insufficient data !! You go on to fail to do any tests of your own, siting your own experience as sufficient to advise on the subject. If that's not Arrogant, Pig-headed, and Closed-minded, i don't know what is !!! If you don't question things, you will never improve on them. BaZ- I am trying to 'stir the pot' - the pot of people's minds. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trofius Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 i used to use blue therm, and aqua one heaters both without ill result, both sell for about $20 each. I did have a more expensive one stuff up, it wont turn off, killed a heap of fish one night, 4x18x18 tank 200w heater got to 39deg by morning, 3/17 fish suvived. i do beleive that you get what you pay for in the long run and for a few extra bucks the savings could be huge, i remember this from an ad i saw once and it is soo true " The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten" If you have lots of tanks to heat in the same room, then forget heaters, and THINK SERIOUSLY ABOUT REVERSE CYCLE AIRCON.I have 15 bigish tanks now and after adding up the cost of the heaters, the power they would chew, and the power board mess, and the possible unrelability issue, it was a no brainer, all tanks within 2 deg of each other, and a nice warm/cool place to sit and enjoy watching the fishes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tam Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 Just wondering if anybody uses Sera heaters? I have been running 3 x 300W models for the last 2 years and never had a problem with them. Not even any condensation inside. ← I just recently got 2 300w seras for my 6ft tank. So far so good. Its even got the heat shield, pretty useful and makes it alot safer from fish getting burns. I was sick of using the inaccurate / faulty heaters from the aqua one. cheers Tam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 Well if it's an age thing now, somebody could mention how older hobbiests are often ridiculously set in their ways, and impossible to reason with, despite absolute proof being offered. I'm not saying this thread is an example, but I couls cite many if need be. That of course if this was to become an age thing... Personally in summer when I shut my tanks down, my tanks can fluctuate up to 8 degrees a day. I have never lost a fish to anything I can relate to temperature fluctuation, but I can assure you all my fish breed for me all year round... How many people here would go as far as SUGGESTING a sharp temperature fluctuation induced by a cool water change is a spawning trigger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Salita Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 Just wondering if anybody uses Sera heaters? I do. I have been using 7 of them for many years now without a failure. The 'J" brand in the same time has some and gone from my tanks, so I am with merjo on those. The other thing I like about the sera heaters is they are much more compact than most. I like the colour too. Shallow arent I. Cheers, Jason PS: well said Ducksta. Personally I would say this thread IS an example of that generalised statement(I think you know it) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r.d.m Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 mick its quite true what you say ,also i wonder what would happen if all 15 heaters turned on at the same time,3000w through your house wiring! unlikely, but stranger things have happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tykita Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 i had a cheap heater a while back.broke down overnight,lost 20 alto comps.never again will i buy a cheap heater regards chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Miller Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 Hi all, I've only just picked up on this topic, so I apologise if I seem a bit slow on the uptake or if I've missed something. BUT: All the tank temperature recordings in the world won't mean anything if you don't know what the ambient temperature is. For example, if the water in a tank starts at 22 deg and the heater is turned off at 25 deg, what is the relevance if it's a 35 deg day in the middle of summer? The discussion about water movement doesn't seem to have considered the effect of fish moving around (I'm assuming that nobody here heats tanks that don't have fish in them). Just a couple of thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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