kemst Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Does anyone have advice on selecting heaters? What brands are winners and which should be avoided? I am thinking of retireing my current heater and keeping it as a spare. Can you "overpower" the heater (wattage too high for the tank)? ...I have noticed that there is a very small difference between a 150 and 200 watt heater...is there any real risk of having too much power or should I stick to 1 watt per litre? I know this is a simple question but I don't really want to be buying these things too often. ANy tips or advice is welcomed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoliroMan Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 u can't beat the new Eheim Jagers! They r the best by far! Get a 300W one since an overpowered one means they won't need to be on for very long. The Jagers can heat up tanks up to 600L! Auburn stocks them at a discount to ACE forum members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 I'm currently using a couple of AquarLine stainless steel heaters. So far I love them! They have a control pad that sits out of the water, mine are mounted onto the rack so you can dial a temp without having to fiddle around under water. They also have an alarm which sounds if the water level in the tank gets too low for them. Great idea for when you are doing water changes and forget to turn the heater off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmilfish Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 A lot of the on line places are doing heaters for $12.Buy a few have spares .At $12 it doesnt matter if you only get 2-3 years out of them.Others may say by the dear heaters,but i have had as many of these break as the cheaper ones cheers jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willsy01 Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 They also have an alarm which sounds if the water level in the tank gets too low for them. Great idea for when you are doing water changes and forget to turn the heater off! Mmmm, I needed this yesterday when I forgot to turn the ol' heater off during a water change......*pop* *sizzle* *steam*. Wasn't impressed. I'm using an AquaOne 300w heater and it does fine in my 55gal so far.....will be good to see how it performs now that the weather is cooling down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poxboy Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 I'm with Jim, I reckon the cheap 300w heaters by Resun are great. I bought 2 for my 6x2x2 and only ended up needing 1. I keep it in my sump so it wont get smashed. Fish4u have them for about $13. Bretto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakeyBoyR Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 I've never had trouble with cheap heaters like 'heater' and 'resun'. They have always worked great for me. Lets just hope I havent jinxed myself by saying that though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Morelia Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 The cheap ones do me fine, too. I don't reckon you can have too large a heater for a tank, except that with a higher wattage heater it will have your fish done nicely in less time if it fails and doesn't turn off. But with a higher wattage it will heat the water quicker and therefore should keep the temperature more stable. Those fandangled stainless steel things sound the goods if you can afford them though Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 Yes they're great! Here's some pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 G'day I have bought cheap heaters and expensive heaters. I still have one that is 20 years old. Anyway. I would honestly suggest that if you only need one or two heaters to go for the best you can afford, these are less likely to fail. After all WE will not be suffering when they fail but your fish will almost certainly! Trust me on this I would happily pay extra to get some of my fish back that have died due to faulty heaters! Personally I am getting a four of the new Jagers. This may seem odd considering I am about to retire about 32 (not that) old/cheap heaters that are currently in use. (Well whenever I start up the heater in the fishroom. ) HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camry_csx Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 BaZ i got one of them heaters they are fantastic. Personaly i would stay away from the cheaper ones, i worked at a LFS that sold the Aqua pro and heater brands, the amount we got back was very high, the boss's attitude was "not bad considering how many we sell" but its the same with filters, why risk buying a cheap heater/filter when u spend big bucks on fish. and sure they have a warranty but what ya gonna do while its getting fixed? You can over power a tank with wattage. For example if you have 2 300W heaters one in a 100L tank and another in a 300L tank and the termostats fail, the 100L tank will heat up much faster then the 300L, and will end up killing your fish. I chose to pay the litttle extra, for that extra piece of mind, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakeyBoyR Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 How much are those groovy steel ones anyway? Baz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViS Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 AOA has them for $49: http://www.aquariumproducts.com.au/prod874.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 G'day I will also say that these steel ones are very good, I have two of these as well. In the last 6 months they have been performing well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 I personally would stay away from Jagers till others have bought them and they have proved themselves again. Too many times in the past I have heard the problem was fixed, only to hear another story afterwards that they weren’t. With new people manufacturing them, I expect they will be fine, but my opinion still has to be made up for me, and I’m not prepared to put my fish on the front line. Jagers used to be the universally accepted as the best, and I was one of the loudest advocates, I hope to be again one day. Yes you can have too much power in heater. What happens if the thermostat sticks and you have a 300 watt heater in say a 2’ tank? The one watt per litre is only a rule of thumb method, as the fish tank's location will have a large impact on how hard the heater has to work. Compare the heating of two same sized tanks one located in a garage, the other next to your TV in the lounge room… I like the look of the stainless steel one. I didn't know they came with an external contal pad. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Craig, if everybody took that line, Jager would never have a chance to redeem themselves. And you would never get your chance to proclaim their worth again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 Agree, but once bitten twice shy as they say. It is also not a problem of my making but one brought about by the heaters themselves. It is up to them to prove themselves, not for me to out of the goodness of my heart to forgive and forget. Craig PS - what was it in red print you had on the bottom of your post? I reckon the cheap 300w heaters by Resun are great. I bought 2 for my 6x2x2 and only ended up needing 1. I keep it in my sump so it wont get smashed Poxboy What you can do with this second heater is keep it plugged in, but set at a couple of degrees lower than the other heater. That way, if the first heater should happen to fail, you have a back up ready to take over. But with a higher wattage it will heat the water quicker and therefore should keep the temperature more stable. Dark Moelia As a matter of fact I believe the opposite is true. Higher wattage heater often have a lager heater coil in them, giving a larger surface area. Once the heater reaches its set temperature, it turns itself off, but the surface area of the heater is still hot, and only cools itself on the aquarium’s water (as it would). If the tank is too small for it, the tank’s temperature will continue to rise, even though the heater is actually off. Once the heater cools to a temperature below the tank’s temperature, the tank will of course continue to loose heat until the heater comes back on again, and the cycle will repeat itself. So in effect what will happen will be the tank’s temperature will fluctuate constantly. This of course all depends on the relationship between the tank’s size and the heater's capacity, but if it is a big heater in a small tank, it is my understanding this is the result. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 But excessive paranoia can be harmful to your sanity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r.d.m Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 [ you can have too much power in heater. What happens if the thermostat sticks and you have a 300 watt heater in say a 2’ tank? Tmy mum cooked 2 beaut catfish with a big heater that stuckon,imo buy the best you can afford,and rather than a big heater use a smaller one -1. if it sticks on, disaster can be averted before cooking commences,2. a lower powered heater will cycle on and off far less and therfore last longer,i heat my 4x2x2 with2x 150's with no probs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakeyBoyR Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 I always use more powerful heaters than is necessary in my tanks. For instance I use a 300watt in my 80 litres 2'. Some call this overkill, but it heats so effectively that it barely ever needs to turn itself on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Morelia Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 As a matter of fact I believe the opposite is true. Higher wattage heater often have a lager heater coil in them, giving a larger surface area. Once the heater reaches its set temperature, it turns itself off, but the surface area of the heater is still hot, and only cools itself on the aquarium’s water (as it would). If the tank is too small for it, the tank’s temperature will continue to rise, even though the heater is actually off. Once the heater cools to a temperature below the tank’s temperature, the tank will of course continue to loose heat until the heater comes back on again, and the cycle will repeat itself. So in effect what will happen will be the tank’s temperature will fluctuate constantly. This of course all depends on the relationship between the tank’s size and the heater's capacity, but if it is a big heater in a small tank, it is my understanding this is the result.← CThompson, Does it not stand to reason that the larger the surface area, the more efficiently it will heat the water ?? I think the process you described could only happen if there was no water movement. If you situate the heater in the area with highest current flow (Where they should always be) then what you described shouldn't occur. All my heaters sit right in front of the filter outlets so that the heated water is pushed around the tank straight away and the heater surface is cooled (at first) then warmed, as the tank warms. I also can't see what difference a larger or smaller heater would make if it got stuck on, say, over night, or when you're at work, anyway you'd still get cooked fish. Unless you check the temps in all your tanks every five minutes, i can't see any point in sacrificing temperature stability for that tiny safety margin Each to their own i guess. I'm just stating what works for me and why i think it works. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted March 31, 2005 Share Posted March 31, 2005 I think the process you described could only happen if there was no water movement. To respond; This of course all depends on the relationship between the tank’s size and the heater's capacity, but if it is a big heater in a small tank, it is my understanding this is the result If there was NO water movement, the heat would not move around the tank, regardless of size, and the tank would not heat at all. It doesn’t matter how fast the water is going past the heater, if all the water is hot, and your heater has a big element, and takes a long time to cool (below the tank's temp), it will keep on heating the water, even if it is not turned on. Now this will happen in any size tank, the difference being if the tank is big enough, this extra heating produced by the heater will not have an impact on the tank's temperature. However, if the tank is not big enough, this extra heating can potentially overheat (beyond what the heater's thermostat is set at) the small tank, and cause temperature fluctuations. Next time you see your heater's thermostat go off, stick your hand in the tank and see how long you can hold it for! I also can't see what difference a larger or smaller heater would make if it got stuck on The idea is if you put a heater on your tank that is the correct/best size, if it does get stuck on, it is not capable of heating the tank to the point of killing the fish. I'm not saying it would be easy to achieve, can't say I have necessarily done it myself, but it is what I consider when I heat a tank. The original question we are debating is; Can you "overpower" the heater (wattage too high for the tank)? The simple answer to this is "yes". Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Morelia Posted April 1, 2005 Share Posted April 1, 2005 The original question we are debating is; Can you "overpower" the heater (wattage too high for the tank)? The simple answer to this is "yes". The simple answer is that there is no simple answer. So here is a complicated answer instead... Conditions: 10 litre tank, no fish, with 1x 300 watt heater. I topped it up with some cool water to activate the heater and start the test. The temp dropped to 24.6ºC Heater switched on 17:40 - The heater switched off at 25.5ºC 17:41 - 25.7ºC 17:42 - 25.8ºC 17:43 - 25.9ºC 17:44 - 25.9ºC 17:45 - 25.9ºC 17:46 - 25.9ºC Probably the only reason the temperature continued to increase after the heater shut off is because it's not situated the highest area of current flow, as the heater doesn't fit directly in the filter path in such a small tank. I would do it with a larger tank, say 2ft, where the heater is directly in the flow path, but it's a little bit harder to control conditions then and i can't initiate the test, and none of my heaters are on right now. If there was NO water movement, the heat would not move around the tank, regardless of size, and the tank would not heat at all. This is untrue. The convection current caused by the heated water rising to the surface and displacing the water there would create a fair bit of water movement, especially in the case of large heater/small tank. Of course it would not heat evenly or effectively, but that's a moot point. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kemst Posted April 1, 2005 Author Share Posted April 1, 2005 Great idea Andy, Do you have any longer term results? I may be able to borrow a data logger in a week or two and could look at doing a semi-controlled experiment so that we can see how it goes. The data logger can take the temperature at a chosen interval over any chosen length of time. The data can then be plotted and you can have a look at the trends. I think this would be one way to test both theories. All I need is another tank and a couple of different heaters...this may take more than a couple of weeks for me to organise. I hope to be getting a small-ish tank in the near future so will try it out before any fish go in. It is a good way to test the theory but kinda defeats the purpose of me selecting only 1 heater. Also - for best results heaters of the same brand/quality and age should be used and have only a different wattage. I'll let you know if I can get hold of a logger and the tanks/heaters and if I have any useful results.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted April 3, 2005 Share Posted April 3, 2005 The convection current caused by the heated water rising to the surface and displacing the water there would create a fair bit of water movement, especially in the case of large heater/small tank. I stand corrected – heat rises, and will cause its own water movement to an extent. I should think the smaller the tank, the more the heat will be moved around the tank. The larger the tank the greater the potential for the heat not to reach areas (the reason heater should be put into currents as I think you have also said). • The temp dropped to 24.6ºC • Heater switched on • 17:40 - The heater switched off at 25.5ºC • 17:41 - 25.7ºC • 17:42 - 25.8ºC • 17:43 - 25.9ºC • 17:44 - 25.9ºC • 17:45 - 25.9ºC • 17:46 - 25.9ºC Interesting that you went to such trouble. I think you’ll find though that the temperature continued to rise after the heater switched off because the heater was still hot. Though it didn’t rise by much did it. Over a longer period of time I think you'll find that once the temp drops back to below 25.5ºC, it will come on again, and once off at 25.5ºC, the temp will go up to 25.9ºC. A tank of this size, with a heater of this wattage the temp will continually swing from 25.5ºC to 25.9ºC. Which is what I was saying. If you are going to such trouble, turn the 300 watt heater full up, and see how hot the tank gets. Then use a smaller, say 25 watt heater, turn it full up and see how hot the tank gets. The 300 watt heater will get hot enough to kill all inhabitants, I wonder how hot the 25 watt will get? The 10 litre tank may be small enough that the 25 watter will still be too much for it. How did you fit a 300 watt heater into a 10 litre tank? The top half must have been sticking out? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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