LFS and Cichlids

[Mazimbwe]

I would like to put this point across,Nigel imports fish into australia...yadda, yadda, yadda

That is all true, and I am sorry to seem like The Devils Advocate here, but he is not an LFS, is he?

[Burek]

If you know the lfs owner and you have been buying from him alot and you got use to talking with him alot, he would give you discounts, you sell fish that you breed to them cheaply they would probally give you discounts on stuff..

Lfs are important people... where do we go when one of our fish get a diesease? to the LFS!!!

they gotta make profit too because of electricity etc.. its true that alot of shops are not gettign cichlids because people dont buy them that much from lfs and thats why they dont bother wasteing alot of moeny of fish that people wont buy...

even nigel has to make a profit because it woudint be worth importing them from africa and not gettign soem sort of profit.

[midnightexpress]

like cichlids_au says "they need us more than we need them!!!!!

[Mazimbwe]

hmmm...maybe if you didn't think about it as such an "Us & Them", issue you may find things are a little different at the LFS?!

[Mazimbwe]

Cichlidiots are basically your hobbyist and you will find most of this group is frugal in the way they go about running their set-ups. This results in the inability to justify purchases from shops because the retail pricing is too high. We tend to use as many DIY methods as possible to bring overheads down.

Now, if you intend to target the Cichlidiot then you are targeting the least likely group to make purchases.

My personal view is that we have it all around the wrong way. It’s the shops that need us, not the other way around.

They are the ones that benefit from our activities, it is not the other way around.

I believe that they need us more than we need them.

??????????

In the same post that you say we are all tight-fisted and not likely to buy from the LFS, you say they need us???

What for, a lack of business?

[Burek]

we need them more then they need us, lol... because they sell community fish to alot of people, people buy them, thats that, as for cichldis its not rare to find the same type cichlid sitting in the tank for a few months.. of course we benefit the lfs bbuying stuff from them too but the lfs can live withour us, they would still make profit even if we didint buy anything becasue tons of people buy stuff from them...

just my 2c worth

[Cichlids_au]

where is that bash head emo when you need one?

If you are going to Quote me then quote me, don't selectivlet edit my post!

Add this part

Shops like St George and Fish4U have a good relationship with the hobbyist because they know what we know. We sell Cichlids to them cheaper than the wholesalers do. We are local and just a phone call away. We are the ones that create the market by displaying good fish in a healthy environment.

[Josh]

I would like to put this point across,Nigel imports fish into australia

1-he pays he's supplier

2-he pays to get them here

3-he pays customs

4-he houses them till it's ready to be sold.

5-he make a profite

but the lfs buys fish of us and sells them to the public 200% more than nigels sells his fish for,who is gready?

And a LFS

1-pays for the fish

2 pays to get them to there store

3-they pay rent, wages, taxes, insurances, electricity, telephone, water rates and advertising

4-they have to feed, maintain, right-off all loses

5-THEY NEED TO MAKE A PROFIT

So whats the difference midnightexpress?

[Mazimbwe]

You looking for suggestions as to what to do with the "bash head emo"??

Shops like St George...didn't they used to be sponsors? Speaking of which, if they need us so much why are there very few "Retail" outlets as sponsors???

Is Fish 4 U the same as many other LFS's is it??

[Cichlids_au]

No. I know what to do with the emo

Shops like St George...didn't they used to be sponsors? Speaking of which, if they need us so much why are there very few "Retail" outlets as sponsors???

What about St George? How long do you expect Carol to continue paying for sponsorship when they are not able to use the service. St George has, for a long time supplied sponsorship to both this forum and the NSWCS. They have done it because they wanted to help out the hobbyist because they realise that they can do well out of it. Just like the breeders list that they maintain to ensure they have a good supply of quality stock.

Carol’s decision to not sponsor any organisation is a decision for her to make, all I can say is what champions they are for the hobby.

Is Fish 4 U the same as many other LFS's is it??

I don’t get what you are trying to say about Fish4U. I do know that they also realise that they need to look after the hobby for their shop to do better then most of their competition. I also know that they have decided to rejoin us and they also support the NSWCS.

Then there are other shops here that think they are cool to treat breeders as your regular customer. They would be lost without the impulse buyer or they move into other products to survive. (i.e. mammals)

[Pacco]

Great post akroyd

I find most people seriously underestimate the amount of work and money that goes into keeping a LFS running.

Also, I think you'll find one of the reasons there aren't a lot of rarer, "new" cichlids in stores is that a lot of stores have been previously burnt with the invariable price crash - especially on Malawis (think hongi, acei, mainganos etc). There isn't that much incentive to stock expensive fish with limitted potential for sale (especially given that the majority of people who would be interested in them would go for a private purchase anyway) when there is a very real chance that the fish will be worth half of what the store paid for it in 6 months....

Just my 2c

Pacco

[Mazimbwe]

I don’t get what you are trying to say about Fish4U.

Errrm...I was not saying anything, I was just asking a sinple, harmless question.

I knew it was the last thing you would expect and therefore may throw you off-guard tomy counter attack!!!! This 5 Emo limit Sux LOL

I think we are going to see this from 2 different points of view, those of us who think things are that "Black & White" anyway;

1. MY money is most important!!

2. My hobby, as a whole, is most important!!

At least that is the way I see it.

I have always tried to have a wholistic ethos toward the hobby, it is bigger than my wallet after all, and we should be trying to look after each of us involved(when we can)...after all isn't that the underlying reason why we are all in bloody Cichlid forums/society's, giving our time and sharing our information/knowledge, loss, joy, anger, happyness, etc

Or is it just my Hippy attitude that is being killed by conservatizm around the world?? *Woot emo, Tongue emo & lolol emo*

I try to save money when I can...and seeing my local LFS as part of the hobby is part of that money saving process. I try to look after them with great quality fish and I only look after the LFS's(and the people for that matter) who have the same Us, not us V's them, attitude. For example, I do not do business at a local Pet-store B'coz they do not support local breeders and would rather buy from intersate wholesalers. But if local breeders did not support the LFS, it would be hypocritical to expect a different attitude from them.

I do not think all LFS's are good or good for the hobby and I make my choices about which shops I spend my money/credit at(as we all do).

But fundamentally, if LFS's can not sell Cichlids they will not buy em...and then ya can forget about sales, coz at the end of the day an LFS will sell more Cichlids to the public over a year than any breeder.

And for the beginning/young/new Cichlidiots the LFS is their first and most common point of contact with Cichlids...it is also the only place where they can trade fish for cash/credit making the hobby far more accessible to many.

[Cichlids_au]

Bloody Hippies! "roll eyes emo" "peace man emo" "love emo"

And for the beginning/young/new Cichlidiots the LFS is their first and most common point of contact with Cichlids...it is also the only place where they can trade fish for cash/credit making the hobby far more accessible to many.

Good point. Remember though, I have never said we don't require shops. I just dont agree on the NEED statement.

[gswalker]

There is also the other side to this debate. If you dont support aquarium shops then thay wont buy fish from importers and wholesalers and there will be no new fish brought in. So the way i see it stop beinging cheap and go spend some money. At the end of the day you cant take it with you when you die. What a bunch of cheapskates there is in this hobby.

So far hardly any LFS can get the fish I want, no LFS makes a profit on cichlids its the bread and butter fish they make money and other certain types, the fish that get brought in can be sold by lfs OR other people , no cichlid hobbyist is reliant on LFS getting the fish they wernt cause they usually cant. your right that we cant take the money when we die so why sell fish for then?? just give us the fish if you dont need the money, i dont think you realised what u just said personally

[Mazimbwe]

OK, I have really enjoyed this but this is my last one(unless someone baits me with a big enough Jibe ).

Need, schmeed...no-one needs anyone or anything till they are in the "Brown"!!

But if we do not look after each other, and I do not mean that we must all blow every cent we have, then we can only expect our hobby to become under more threat than it already faces.

To that end...I love you all, "man"('cept those of ya that give me the irrits ).

Peace, love and all that other Stuff!!

p.s. I hope this thread does a lot to show everyone that disagreements do not need to turn in to fights...the can always just be discussion.

[Cichlids_au]

Exactly

[mysteriousredsuns]

i think cichlidau was referring to the reverse supplier relationship, eg not we buy off the lfs but the lfs buy from us to sell to the "other group".

my opinion is that these post are sometimes a little general when talking about lfs. we all know they are different so lets think of them in a big market concept. if one place sells cheaper, better, poorer or more expensive stock, wouldnt rational people soon start to learn where to get products from? we learnt in business class that the market generally has people who will find a certain price they will pay for a certain good of certain quality and therefore lfs would have to sooner or later meet these demands or face losing sales.

having been in this hobby only about 2 years, i have seen many new lfs open in victoria and i have seen big differences in prices etc. i noticed when i first started out that i only shopped at the cheapest places. after a while i noticed a lot of people complaining about these places because of after sales support etc.

now i found a few people in my network starting to shop at more expensive places but reputable for quality.

my opinion, sooner or later somethign will change. if it is the lfs who are over charging, sooner or later they will have to change prices or people will not buy, ad vice versa.

[Dark Morelia]

The problem is that whole sale price on fish is way too high.

PS: i believe 100% profit is reasonable

I feel that this is the real problem here.

Think of the setups Wholesalers have.

They can get all their supplies, gear, and everything WAY cheaper than we can.

How come the average Hobbyist can sell his(or her) fish cheaper than a large wholesaler, who has huge breeding setups, and cheaper food, etc. ?

The petshop i work part-time at puts around 110% profit on fish, so they have good prices, but when it comes to cichlids, the wholesalers charge that much that, even with a reduction in mark up (which i know they do) they still end up rather ludicrously expensive.

Consider Gibby plecos... nearly everywhere you go around here they're ~$90 for a 5cm model, but i noticed the other day they're only around $18 wholesale... and i know those shops get their fish from that wholesaler. You work out the numbers

hmmm...maybe if you didn't think about it as such an "Us & Them", issue you may find things are a little different at the LFS?!

Umm... yep. You're definitely a Hippie.

We are talking about two very clearly different groups of people here.

People who keep fish for the love of it, and people who keep them to make a profit. That changes everything, and we are clearly "Us" and "Them"

I've learnt the hard way through local shops that if you let your guard down for a second and start thinking of "Them" as another "Us" hobbyist, you're likely to get royally ripped off somehow.

where do we go when one of our fish get a disease?

Umm... the place you normally keep your fish medicine ?

If you can't identify the disease, you obviously have a computer with internet access...... LOOK IT UP.... and then order suitable medication. (or better yet, keep some on hand for more common illnesses at all times)

You can buy all your gear online now, cheaper than an LFS.

Embrace the revolution. It's called "Shopping on the Internet"

Just be careful and think about it before you send your money away

Home shopping has got to be the way of the future.

Even blind Freddy can see Retail prices everywhere are climbing to just plain ridiculous heights. (I don't just mean fish)

But if we do not look after each other, and I do not mean that we must all blow every cent we have, then we can only expect our hobby to become under more threat than it already faces.

What exactly do you mean with this ?

Do you mean us hobbyists should look after each other, or hobbyists and profitists should look after each other ?

Going by your recent displays of Hippiness , i'm guessing the latter.

I used to take animals to my local shop, and i'd give them to them for half the wholesale price... or even free if i just needed to make room bad...

But then they just stick on their "normal" price regardless.

That's when i stopped "Looking after" my local shops.

I know that not all shops are like this, it's probably just my local ones.

I do know of a couple of shops abroad who aren't run by greedy people, but these are few and far between nowadays, IMO.

Me ? I've had enough of it. I'm finishing my part-time work at my local petshop at the end of this month.

I don't want to be a part of the insatiable "need" for more profits... the slowly rising markups, the deceptions.

I much prefer it here, on this forum, where people will sell you a fish for the amount they paid for it !

Fish-loving people looking after Fish-loving people .

Forget the LFS.

They need us more than we need them.

Just that most of us don't know it yet.

Andy.

[Crazyfish]

Hi All..... im not trying to step on any bodys toes though, since most people are complaning about what dollar amount lfs put on top of there stock.....Why not walk into any shop even maccas and tell them since they serve millions of customers every day that we arent satisfied that they are making profits on us and to drop there prices by $2 a meal......... every biussness needs to make money, otherwise whats the point of opening one....

I dont own a buissness or work for a lfs, but i do know without a lfs i would never have started fish keeping and id say it would be the same for many other people out there!!!!

Its simple if you dont like someones prices or attitude to customers,Dont go in thier shop!!

Just thought id throw in my 2cents,lol

Daniel

[Ducksta]

Hmmm... Fish retailing is now officially the only subject where the continuation of profits, and consumerism are linked to hippy ideals

My personal opinion is split on the issue. No I am not a fence sitter! But unlike many of you I will not just say lfs' as a whole. I think people are basing their VERY GENERAL opinions, on very limited personal experiences. Like some people have only touched on, both arguments have merit for mine, depending on the specific store your dealing with. I think all the anti-lfs opinion is based on experiences with the many stores who are purely profit driven and dont give a rats about a long term relationship with hobbiests/breeders. Unfortunately I think these shops are the majority, at least in Sydney However, to write off all lfs as profit hungry, non-caring, marketting machines is quite unfair on the ones who do look after local hobbiests and regulars. Some great examples have been mentioned such as the sponsors of this site and also St George etc.

In the end, deal with who you choose to. Whether they be private or commercial, if they make you happy, stick with them.

"When your on a good thing; stick to it"

[Mazimbwe]

1.How come the average Hobbyist can sell his(or her) fish cheaper than a large wholesaler, who has huge breeding setups, and cheaper food, etc. ?

hmmm...maybe if you didn't think about it as such an "Us & Them", issue you may find things are a little different at the LFS?!

2.Umm... yep. You're definitely a Hippie.

where do we go when one of our fish get a disease?

3.Umm... the place you normally keep your fish medicine ?

4.You can buy all your gear online now, cheaper than an LFS.

Embrace the revolution. It's called "Shopping on the Internet"

Just be careful and think about it before you send your money away

But if we do not look after each other, and I do not mean that we must all blow every cent we have, then we can only expect our hobby to become under more threat than it already faces.

5.What exactly do you mean with this ?

Do you mean us hobbyists should look after each other, or hobbyists and profitists should look after each other ?

6.Going by your recent displays of Hippiness, i'm guessing the latter.

7.I much prefer it here, on this forum, where people will sell you a fish for the amount they paid for it !

8.Fish-loving people looking after Fish-loving people .

9.They need us more than we need them.

10.Just that most of us don't know it yet.

DM...you have missed the crux of the issue, as I see...

Here's why;

1.Overheads, staff wages, insurance, workers Comp insurance, power, covering 90 day accounts for their clients, etc....none of this I have to deal with as a hobbyist, what about you?

Could that be a factor??

2.Why am I a hippy to you?? Is it because I can master the art of human communication resulting in me working with more people than against? Maybe your Us and Them attitude is a major contributor to the results you see when dealing with LFS's??

3.Hmmm....and where did you buy that medication?? I know my first purchases of any medication was from a LFS or a Vet...you get a Genie to organise your first Med, did ya, or maybe you got it Online...without a clue as to if it is right...and then waited for 10 days while your sick fish floated on the surface, for you Med's to get there?

I keep WS-treatment and Tropheus Bloat treatment on hand but that is all, you got your own medicine cabinet in the Fish-room have ya?

4.Another good one ! Online shopping is OK but lacks plenty, especially for the new hobbiest who has to learn what is good product and bad product, bad deal and good deal....I will bet everything I own in saying that you did NOT make your first Aquarium product purchases on-line, eh??

Moreover, I do not like having money deducted from my credit card only to wait for as long as the Online-Store wants to take to delivery my Bought & Paid for items. I recently made a purchase from AOA and have been waiting over a week(9days) for my gear.

Do you think that Online shops are not making a profit by having such reduced overheads?? What do you do if the Filter you order arrives with a broken impeller shaft...wait another 2 weeks for it too arrive or nip back down to your mates at the LFS and get a new one for nothing, in no time?

Online shopping is good once you know what you are buying etc...not a good way to learn tho, IMO.

5.If you re-read all of my posts in this thread, even you should be able to work it out for yourself.

6.Obviously English is you second language or you skipped over what I said, keen to get here looking for an argument. Which one is it??

7.There are plenty of examples of Members on this and other Forums, tho thankfully not the majority, who are just as interested in Profit and Bugger-You-attitudes as Bad LFS's. Who is wearing the Rose-Coloured-Hippy Glasses now??

8.This is exactly what I have said. There are LFS's and staff at them, from my experience, who are also Cichlid-lovers and hobbyists. Take the chip of your shoulder when you speak to peep's at the LFS and you may find there is a different response to/for you.

9.Fish shops make money from Tropicals, BN, Goldfish, Betta's, etc....vary rare for a LFS to profit much from Cichlids, even though the care and service required by those Cichlids far outway the care needed by the Tropicals.

So WHY do they need us again??

10.We ALL need each other...no LFS selling Cichlids = no Cichlids bought from breeders.

Re-read B4 reposting please.

Edit: Mail has been aswered.

[Lee Miller]

Hi all,

AKROYD - you've used facts, figures, reason and logic to destroy a very emotive discussion that is based on the 'I reckon' model . Well done! Those accountancy classes are really paying off

Mark - 'They need us more than we need them' - Hooey! I've only got 11 tanks but without shops I'd have to be 'culling' fish constantly . I need shops to keep my stock levels down.

Cheers,

Lee.

[Burek]

i reckon.. we need the lfs, the lfs dont really need us but they would still benefit from us kinda alot.

if for example we have too much fry and woudl liek to sell some off, we post them up on the forum, if there is not much replieing to your post about your fry then at least you have another option of seeling to your lfs.

We all buy stuff from a lfs..

sometimes they stock fish that we reckon is a fair price, why not try negotiating with them and try get a cheaper price for some things?

try negotiateing and you never know how cheap you can get it!!!!!!!!!!

hehe just my 2c worth

[ViS]

I'm not going to get too much into this discussion, but the way I personally see it.....

I don't need my LFS as a general rule.

I need wholesalers / friends who have access to wholesalers.

Wholesalers need multiple LFS.

So through a middleman, I guess I do need my LFS or else the wholesalers I know and love wouldn't have a business.

For anyone who has been in the hobby long enough, and can use the internet, the local shop can't really provide anything at a price that would make us shop there.

However, unless you plan way ahead, there will be times when you need something right away and that's where the LFS comes in.

I have no problem with the prices that shops charge. They are there to make money, whereas we are here to save money as consumers. If we can find cheaper alternatives for the exact same product, why wouldn't we buy from a wholesaler or from an internet shop if we had the option? Paying inflated prices just to support our local hobby is a bit dumb in my opinion. If I could light cuban cigars with $100 notes, then I probably would buy from the closest most convenient source, but most of us have a mortgage and a family, so need to purchase our equipment at the best price possible.

There are plenty of alternatives in this day and age to get your produce or livestock. Stop whinging, work out what's best for you and go that way. If a shop is too expensive, then don't shop there. Simple. Most internet stores (AOA in particular) will get you the product in a few working days. If you can't wait that long, get it at a more expensive price from your LFS and give yourself an uppercut for not planning ahead well enough.

[Mazimbwe]

Paying inflated prices just to support our local hobby is a bit dumb in my opinion.

Just as thinking you & your wallet is the only thing to consider, with regards to a hobby/lifestyle, is "dumb"(not to mention Short-sighted) in my opinion??!!

Self, self, self...that seems to be the argument from many detractors.

Very sad.