LFS and Cichlids

[ViS]

No you have it wrong Maz.

I'm not detracting from LFS. As I said (before you quoted one line out of text), my LFS has it's place in the hobby, but nobody in their right mind would shop at a place simply to be "the good guy" in the LFS's eyes, unless that's what they crave - the LFS to recognise their existence. I think the hobby would suffer if shops started closing down and I like to see them survive, but not at my expense. I've done more good for the cichlid hobby in Australia helping to start these forums up with David all those years ago than my LFS has ever done, so don't even try to use that "he only cares about himself" crud here.

Competition for consumers money is there for a reason. If one place offers me a filter for $200 and I can get it just as easily at another place for $150, why would I pay $200?

I certainly don't care about overheads and other shop related expenses. What I care about (as a consumer) is where I can get my product for the best price. If that happens to be from a business that operates from a small shop (or their own house), then that's where my money goes.

You say that "self, self self" is a consumers argument. If people are so selfless, how about they send me some money and I'll start buying stuff from my LFS instead of over the internet? Sounds good to me.

I'm all for business enterprise (I own a business myself). I can undercut my competitors by nearly 50% simply because if I don't trade, my equipment sits in my garage, unused and does not cost me a thing. However, I know of a large shop owner that charges double what I do for exactly the same service and drives around in a brand new Mercedes. There is a market for everyone. My target market is working class people and Uni students who can't afford $550 or more to learn to dive. The guy in the Mercedes targets people who want to be "in" with the shop and part of a social scene. He packs his courses with 8 or more people, pays his instructors next to nothing and sits back to watch the cash roll in. I take 2 or 3 people, let them suggest times and dates and try to work in the course to make it as easy, relaxed and enjoyable for them as possible. I make only a small amount of profit, but I enjoy every minute of it.

People will always take the easy option, which is stopping in at their LFS and grabbing their items, even if it costs more than if they researched it and bought it elsewhere. That is how the shops survive, which is fine by me, but I don't appreciate being called selfish simply because I'd rather see money stay in my pocket than in an LFS till.

As I stated in the first line, it was MY OPINION. You can have yours, Billy joe normal can have his. I have mine and that's how I see it. That's what makes the human race so special

And that is all I have to say about that

[Mazimbwe]

Opinions are like poop-holes aren't they Andy?!

I have not told you not to have one of your own.

I quoted the line out of text(where else would I get it from?) but not out of context. Everything your talking about, as a consumer, is Me, Me, Me...or did I miss something?

I do not have access to a Wholesaler B'coz I am not a registered-business-owner, and I dare say the number of people on this forum who are set up to supply wholesalers on a regular basis is not the majority...and online shopping is great for experienced people who know what it is that they are buing B4 they buy it.

Just as you do not like to be called selfish, tho I was not singling you out , I do not like to be called dumb.

Why do I have it wrong...couldn't we both be right Andy??

I have never said that EVERY LFS was worth doing business with...quite the opposite. So we may in fact differ only slightly in what we are saying.

All I have ever expressed in this thread is a desire to look after the LFS's that look after us, as individuals.

If you wanna do different, or think that I have said different, that is your choice.

[ViS]

Ok I didn't say you were wrong Maz, I said you interpreted what I said incorrectly.

Yes I meant context (very well done )

I don't have access to wholesalers because I'm a business owner. I've made some close friends in the hobby over the years who happen to either be wholesalers or know wholesalers.

I certainly do think you have it right and never said you were wrong in your opinion. As I stated, I do agree with what you said, but your way of supporting the industry is not always the best way for some people. I simply stated my opinion on the best way to purchase goods for those of us who need to watch what they spend.

I'd love nothing more than to be able to throw money at a good lfs without a care in the world, but it's obviously not the smartest thing to do if I can save money by doing it differently and shopping elsewhere.

The only thing I disagree with in your last statement is about needing to be experienced when shopping online.

That's just the easy way out to say that. I often will go to a store (be it an electrical, furniture store etc) and research a product I want to buy. I then take that info and research it on the internet, collecting other peoples reviews and comments about it. I'll then try to find it at the best price possible and if it is cheaper than at the shop where I looked at it in the flesh, I'll buy it online.

I don't see how that is any different to shopping for fish stuff. If I can be a relative expert on video cameras within a few hours of researching them on the internet, then so can anyone who previously had no idea about aquarium equipment.

Have a good read of my original post. I never stated that anyone was dumb. I said it is a dumb thing to do, to simply go in with blinkers on and buy stuff from a shop when there are so many other avenues to consider first. I'm not saying don't buy from a shop, as there are often specials there where you won't even beat it online, but to buy from a shop because you think you are helping the hobby is simply wrong (in my opinion, not anyone elses). If you buy from a shop, you are helping the shop, which is fine if you like the shop. If the shop is helping you, then they deserve to get your money. If the staff are nice and they buy your fish from you, then by all means, help them out in return. Just don't tell me that if I refuse to shop at a local aquarium, then I am damaging the hobby.

More than one opinion can be correct. It depends on what market you are targeting and which market you belong to yourself.

[midnightexpress]

when I first started this hobbie 5 years ago,I went into a fish shop(a well known one).I looked around and the cichlids took my fancy,so i started negoatiate prices.so i got a 4ft tank,then he coned me into buying many items that I did not need to buy which i found out after i got more expereance being in the hobby.from that time on I will not buy anything from them (lfs)unless i have to.WHO IS LOSING NOW.if this is the way they treat there first time customers they deserve what peaple like me think of them.I can tell you at lest 60% of peaple in this hobby had the same expereace that i did.

[Mazimbwe]

LOL...see Andy we are actually not that far apart in our opinions.

I totally agree that as individuals we need to find what is the right way for us to do what we see as the right way to balance self-needs and the hobby.

I never stated that anyone was dumb.

Likewize, I didn't say you were selfish but I fear that the almighty dollar has become the primary thought(for many) rather than taking a balanced approach.

However, when you offer these tips...

I often will go to a store (be it an electrical, furniture store etc) and research a product I want to buy. I then take that info and research it on the internet, collecting other peoples reviews and comments about it. I'll then try to find it at the best price possible and if it is cheaper than at the shop where I looked at it in the flesh, I'll buy it online.

... I find it a bit hypocritical. To say that you go into an LFS(if we are talking about online-Aquarium purchases) and reserch the product only to buy it online...how do you reserch a product in a shop??? By asking the staff. Who is paying for their wages when you give your money to someone after taking the service from someone else. Especially when you are then saying it is better for most to try to save the dollars in their pocket...for me the right thing is the right-thing. If you came to my house and asked all sorts-o-questions about my saulosi and gleaned all you wanted from me, only to buy em from someone else on the forum I would be a little Miffed...wouldn't you?

This is what I was saying about supporting those who help you...and this is where your advice falls on the wrong side, IMO. If you are going to take from someone it is right to give back to them...or be honest right up-front and tell them you are just there to find out which filter you will be buying on-line.

p.s. ME, more than 60% of the people on this board will have been told to get stuffed by someone...but I will bet it has not stopped 1 of them from talking to other people. We all got/get burnt when we are learning(it is part of it) but are you honestly saying that no-one at any LFS you have visited has been descent to you...ever? If so, I am sorry to hear it and I hope you start to have the same sort of experiences I have. In 4yrs I have found some LFS's are not worth a pinch of poo( I got burned too)...but I have persisted and made good friends with people who have a similar outlook to me, who also work in or own fish-shops. So not everyone out there is out to screw you outta your money.

Hope you get to meet some.

[anchar]

Hi all,

I use LFS's, wholesalers and forums to source my gear. I think an important fact that some people may have overlooked is that LFS's are also about people ie. staff (good or bad). A good LFS has a great reservoir of knowledge amongst their staff members that can only be accessed by going into the shop. The staff can be an LFS's greatest resource. There is no advice given when buying online. The forums are a good source of information but they are posts by "faceless" people, many of whom are unknown to most users. If you have built up a good rapport with a decent LFS, then you will go back to purchase products and get information....it's not only about product!

In summary...LFS's, forums and wholesalers are all part of the fish network IMO. Use them all to service whatever niche they fill for you.

merjo

[ViS]

To say that you go into an LFS(if we are talking about online-Aquarium purchases) and reserch the product only to buy it online...how do you reserch a product in a shop??? By asking the staff.

No I rarely ask the staff their opinion on products and never have. I just like to see an item first hand to check it's quality. I then get onto a review site or forum and see what people who own the product think of it.

So I don't owe the shops anything. I simply don't trust salesmen. If the person states to me that they own the (insert item here) then I'll listen to them, but otherwise I'll simply walk in and say I'm "just looking thanks" (see: leave me alone to check out this crap myself). I do however trust online or magazine reviews from people who have used something I'm looking to buy.

Once again, this is how I do things, not how I suggest others should do it if they don't feel comfortable doing it. If people feel the need to be hand fed info, then by all means, ask a staff member.

[Cichlids_au]

So if the theory is the if the LFS have helped you out you should help them out? OK, so it would also go that there are a lot of people out that owe their LFS a jolly good ripping off then.

[anchar]

I am really suprised to read a couple of these posts made by senior forum members.....I am wondering how the LFS sponsers of this forum feel after reading them

merjo

[Cichlids_au]

[midnightexpress]

can't people have their own opinion,or do you beleave in censership

[Mazimbwe]

So if the theory is the if the LFS have helped you out you should help them out? OK, so it would also go that there are a lot of people out that owe their LFS a jolly good ripping off then. 

If you have been ripped and confronted the store and they have done nothing about it...complain with you feet, wallet and voice as loudly and clearly as you can that you have been ripped-off.

What you do is personally up to you.

What has worked for me in the past was to picket the store with a placard. I looked foolish(some said) and embarrassed the hell outta The Cook , but made me feel a whole lotta satisfaction.

Not sure that my stance made a dent in their daily takings but I like to tell myself so.

p.s. Who is censoring your opinion Midnight??? And who are you talking to?

edit: p.s. is the edit.

[Cichlids_au]

What has worked for me in the past was to picket the store with a placard. I looked foolish(some said) and embarrassed the hell outta The Cook  , but made me feel a whole lotta satisfaction.

ROFLMAO

I knew I'd get a bite lolololol

[Mazimbwe]

LOL @ you too Mark. Nice bait BTW...took it like a starving Black Marlin

I am loving this thread...great discussion. Well done.

[Cichlids_au]

I have to agree. Great thread and good fun with people that know how to have fun without going balistic.

[Lepperfish]

Great thread guys..

I agree with every comment basically on here..

Pros and cons of the LFS's....

[ViS]

Merjo,

The sponsors on here ARE the good shops, or they wouldn't be here. We discuss prospective advertisers long before they are able to advertise, and if we feel they are not going to be a benefit to the members here, will not allow them to become part of ACE.

I hope they all do read this thread, as it should make them feel good about the job they are doing.

Long before most of the sponsors came on board here, me and Ben were doing Sydney fish runs. This was our usual route:

Gosford (if we had time), Auburn, St George, Taren Point, Ingleburn, Anitas, NSWCS Meeting.

Obviously sometimes we didn't have time to do all of them each time, but we tried to make an effort to see most of them each time.

I have purchased items and fish from every one of the sponsors (except equarium, but I have sent other people there online) at one time or another over the years. Regardless of anyones views on LFS, some are good shops and deserve patronage. When I first started to go to the Sydney shops several years ago, I used to spend a large percentage of my overall fish purchases at either St George or Fish4U. I don't usually spend money there these days (unless I'm buying tanks of course!), but I never felt that I was getting ripped off when I did shop there regularly. I simply source my fish through private breeders mostly and I don't need to make equipment purchases very often, but I'm sure glad I found those shops back then. Their prices were a fraction of what you pay in Newcastle (lets not even go into the quality of most of the shops up here).

So, don't be surprised that the Senior members have an opinion

Every single one of us on the admin or mod team are simply hobbyists, like 95% of the members here. Is there a reason we shouldn't be entitled to an opinion?

The sponsors don't pay us, they pay to keep this forum on the internet. This is not a "job". This is a labour of love . We should be able to express our thoughts on any subject, just like we encourage others to do (as long as it's constructive praise / criticism).

[ViS]

Oops forgot to answer this:

There is no advice given when buying online.

Anyone who has ever dealt with Ben from Age of Aquariums would disagree with this. He always gives as much info as possible, if you ask him

Also as I said before, there are plenty of review sites and forums around that should give you as much info as you need on any product you are considering buying.

I agree staff at SOME shops do a great job, but more often than not, they are salesmen (or saleskids in many cases) and can tell you what's written on the box or in a book, but can't give you real life experience stories with it.

[Flashgordon]

Wow, what an interesting debate and display of attitudes about the hobby, business and profit taking.

As I see it, somebody opens an LFS with the first and primary goal to make enough money from it to support themselves and their family and to be able to sustain it as a going business. Fair enough, you need to make a profit to do that. Nobody should deny them a profit.

Lets not forget when you sell things on the forum, you are not doing it to support yourself, it is not your job, but still you don't go out to actively make a loss on the transaction. From what I have seen in some cases exactly the opposite

So lets agree that it is OK for LFS to make a profit, support themselves and stay in business.

Now there are also different approaches taken by LFSs. Some are small generalists, and these in my experience are the ones who are of little value to us as cichlid keepers. Others (for example like St George) are large specialists. Typically it is the specialists who are most likely to buy, keep and sell cichlids and on occasion to import them. They are also the ones who will have knowledgeable staff employed, who have an indepth knowledge of cichlids, their compatibilities, their care, their environment etc. Surely these are the guys you support - and these are the places you sell your fish and buy new ones.

Now some of the fish we decide we want to keep are really only available imported. Imported fish tend to be expensive and the best way to keep the cost down is to buy from Nigel or somebody like him. He is happy to bring them in and sell direct to us, (making a profit of course) but cutting out the additional costs to us of the fish passing through a wholesaler and a distributor. So that is what we do. And we love Nigel for it....

I buy almost all my dry goods now from the internet. it is cheaper and it is generally easier. I order it today and it arrive at my house the next day or so. I would probably pay extra for that convenience as I don't have time to go to the LFS very frequently and it is quite a hike for me, but I don't need to as the internet stores are really very well priced and have a great range. So, easy decision.

So it is horses for courses (or fish for tanks) . Some LFS are valuable and useful to you. So, support them. Others are not, so don't support them. Buy and sell on the forum, use internet shopping, use services such as Nigel supplies, and go enjoy the hobby.

After all, keeping cichlids does not need to be a capitalist versus socialist debate nor a diatribe about the evils of profit. Without profit nobody woudl have a job and then we could not keep these amazing little buggers

[Mazimbwe]

So it is horses for courses (or fish for tanks) . Some LFS are valuable and useful to you. So, support them. Others are not, so don't support them. Buy and sell on the forum, use internet shopping, use services such as Nigel supplies, and go enjoy the hobby.

After all, keeping cichlids does not need to be a capitalist versus socialist debate nor a diatribe about the evils of profit. Without profit nobody woudl have a job and then we could not keep these amazing little buggers

Perfecty put Flash.

[midnightexpress]

Mazimbwe IT'S EASY TO BAIT YOU

TOP THREAD

[Gargamel]

I was assuming that Midnight express was joking, a 1/2 hour of year 11 business studies would suggest that he surely must be just trying to take the wee wEE.

[midnightexpress]

NOT REALLY

[Mazimbwe]

Mazimbwe IT'S EASY TO BAIT YOU

Bait me...you haven't baited me, you have only confused the hell outta me.

[Dark Morelia]

DM...you have missed the crux of the issue, as I see...

Umm... I don't remember trying to get to the crux of the issue. I was Stating my opinion and raising points and questions.

1.Overheads, staff wages, insurance, workers Comp insurance, power, covering 90 day accounts for their clients, etc....none of this I have to deal with as a hobbyist, what about you?

Could that be a factor??

Ok, point taken... i didnt think that one through enough.

2.Why am I a hippy to you?? Is it because I can master the art of human communication resulting in me working with more people than against? Maybe your Us and Them attitude is a major contributor to the results you see when dealing with LFS's??

*Sigh* maybe if we were all as good a communicator as you Maz, we'd all get along and live happily ever after.... Until some people woke up to themselves.

This attitude i have developed because i have been burnt too many times, and been misinformed too many times, and been ripped off too many times. Not the other way around.

3.Hmmm....and where did you buy that medication?? I know my first purchases of any medication was from a LFS or a Vet...you get a Genie to organise your first Med, did ya, or maybe you got it Online...without a clue as to if it is right...and then waited for 10 days while your sick fish floated on the surface, for you Med's to get there?

I keep WS-treatment and Tropheus Bloat treatment on hand but that is all, you got your own medicine cabinet in the Fish-room have ya?

I take offence to this suggestion. Not everyone is a moron who has to go to shops and be told what treats what. Some of us are actually capable of doing independant research. There's plenty of info in the 'net.

My first medication was from my brother, a fellow cicho. Since then i have been buying it from those "good" shops i mentioned, in larger quantities. More recently i have been buying it online. If you plan ahead, you won't run out, and hence, your fish won't be floating to the surface.

Yes. I have a shelf full of meds.

I feel it would be pretty stupid to wait till your fish are sick, race to the LFS and pay through the nose for your meds. When you could plan ahead.

4.Another good one ! Online shopping is OK but lacks plenty, especially for the new hobbiest who has to learn what is good product and bad product, bad deal and good deal....

Refer to previous statement about independent research.

I will bet everything I own in saying that you did NOT make your first Aquarium product purchases on-line, eh??

I suppose i may be unusual in that i had a very knowledgable brother to guide me through the basics.

Moreover, I do not like having money deducted from my credit card only to wait for as long as the Online-Store wants to take to delivery my Bought & Paid for items. I recently made a purchase from AOA and have been waiting over a week(9days) for my gear.

Well, that's up to you.

If you think the con of waiting outways the pro of better prices, then you need to think more about your finances.

Do you think that Online shops are not making a profit by having such reduced overheads??

Of course i know they're making a profit, But in the end it works out cheaper for me, so why would i drive for an hour or more to the only shops i'll do business with, and spend more money than i need to, just for the hobby ?

As if !

What do you do if the Filter you order arrives with a broken impeller shaft...wait another 2 weeks for it too arrive or nip back down to your mates at the LFS and get a new one for nothing, in no time?

As i previously pointed out, i don't have any 'mates' at local shops, as they're not run by friendly people.

In the situation you hypothesised, i could either wait for a parent to drive me to a decent shop in sydney, or wait for a while for a new one to arrive.

Online shopping is good once you know what you are buying etc...not a good way to learn tho, IMO.

Refer to previous statement re independant research

5.If you re-read all of my posts in this thread, even you should be able to work it out for yourself.

Hmph.

6.Obviously English is you second language or you skipped over what I said, keen to get here looking for an argument. Which one is it??

Well of course i came looking for an argument, because i didn't agree with some of the opinions voiced in this thread. I never claimed otherwise.

(PS... you've risen to the occasion magnificently)

7.There are plenty of examples of Members on this and other Forums, tho thankfully not the majority, who are just as interested in Profit and Bugger-You-attitudes as Bad LFS's. Who is wearing the Rose-Coloured-Hippy Glasses now??

Yes, obviously.

But it's far easier to compare prices on here and work out who not to buy from than driving to / calling god knows how many LFS's

8.This is exactly what I have said. There are LFS's and staff at them, from my experience, who are also Cichlid-lovers and hobbyists. Take the chip of your shoulder when you speak to peep's at the LFS and you may find there is a different response to/for you.

Ok, maybe that should have been

"Fish-loving Hobbyists looking after Fish-loving Hobbyists"

I don't go into a shop with a "chip on my shoulder" thank-you-very-much.

I will listen to, and evaluate the staff, and react accordingly.

Unfortunatley, many staff are pig-headed close-minded ignorant fools, who don't like to be corrected. And like it even less when they're proved wrong.

Thus i often don't have much luck cultivating relationships with shops.

Those shops run by intelligent, knowledgable people, i will spend hours in them, exchanging information.

Unfortunately it is a fact that such shops are becoming fewer and fewer in number.

Not around here

9.Fish shops make money from Tropicals, BN, Goldfish, Betta's, etc....vary rare for a LFS to profit much from Cichlids, even though the care and service required by those Cichlids far outway the care needed by the Tropicals.

So WHY do they need us again??

How many Goldfish, tropical, or Betta Keepers go into LFSs and buy 6' tank setups ? Canister filters ? or other equipment not generally needed with the other fish types ?

10.We ALL need each other...no LFS selling Cichlids = no Cichlids bought from breeders.

Breeder selling to breeder = No need for LFS

Now, if more experienced hobbyists like yourself were to guide beginners through the basics........

Just read [Andy]'s posts to see what i'm trying to say.

He got it across a lot better than i did.

I've had a total of 4hrs sleep in the past 48hrs, so i hope at least some of this post makes sense...

Andy.