LFS and Cichlids

[Mazimbwe]

So after all that poo poo DM, you are basically saying that there is a place for LFS's;

Those shops run by intelligent, knowledgable people, i will spend hours in them, exchanging information.

(pay for anything while you are in there, BTW?)

And then to say;

Unfortunately it is a fact that such shops are becoming fewer and fewer in number.

Could that be because there has been such a lack of support for them when they are there?

Nice answer,

Hmph.

(PS... you've risen to the occasion magnificently)

...maybe but I didn't have to take 2 days to get back into the discussion.

Yes. I have a shelf full of meds.

I feel it would be pretty stupid to wait till your fish are sick, race to the LFS and pay through the nose for your meds. When you could plan ahead.

...shelf-life and healthy fish mean I do not keep lots of Meds...hope it all works for ya tho.

Just read [Andy]'s posts to see what i'm trying to say.

He got it across a lot better than i did.

...so what was the point of you post then?

You wanna spa with me fine...send me a PM and then we can stop beating around the bush.

This attitude i have developed because i have been burnt too many times, and been misinformed too many times, and been ripped off too many times. Not the other way around.

How did your wonderfull reserch let you down here mate?? If you were that good at it and that good a teacher you wouldn't have got ripped at all.

Feel Better now DM?

[Dark Morelia]

So after all that poo poo DM, you are basically saying that there is a place for LFS's;

You obviously missed the crux of my post

(pay for anything while you are in there, BTW?)

Yes. Occasionally.

Could that be because there has been such a lack of support for them when they are there?

Well then, without cichlid keepers, they're not doing too well, is that what you're saying ?

Nice answer,

Hmph.

I know, a real beauty.

...maybe but I didn't have to take 2 days to get back into the discussion.

PC was playing up. I didnt have a chance to see your reply till last night.

...shelf-life and healthy fish mean I do not keep lots of Meds...hope it all works for ya tho.

I did say that they're there just in case. Also for quarantining new arrivals.

...so what was the point of you post then?

You wanna spa with me fine...send me a PM and then we can stop beating around the bush.

Firstly, no, i don't want to get in a spa with you.

I do like to have a spar occasionally though

I acknowledge the fact that there was no real need for a quoting-post, but several of your statements/points/questions offended me, so i did the whole shebang while i was at it.

If you happen to feel a need to reply to this post, by all means PM me.

How did your wonderfull reserch let you down here mate?? If you were that good at it and that good a teacher you wouldn't have got ripped at all.

Well now, i didn't say i started off doing my own research, did i ?

I said i do it now.

Partially because of those times i've been ripped off

Feel Better now DM?

Yes. Much. Thanks for your replies, it's been fun.

[BlakeyBoyR]

After all the too-ing and fro-ing it would appear that every person here has agreed that there is, to varying extents (depending on personal opinion), a place for LFS in the hobby.

Before I give my 2cents, I think a couple of you should just agree to disagree. No one is going to change anyone else's mind here, it is clear that people feel very strongly in favor of their point of view, which is of course fine as everyone is entitled to their own, but you do not have to change someone ELSE's mind to validate your own perspective.

Ok, now for MY opinion. I myself work for one of the sponsors of this forum in their store and I can see both sides of this argument given that I am both a hobbyist and someone who makes their living off the business side of things.

The sponsor I work for is, and I say this not as a promotion for the shop but as something I truly believe, a bloody good store. I know for a fact that there is none of this 300% mark-up business on the fish in our store, nowhere near that! Whilst obviously Im not privy to exactly how much fish are purchased for wholesale by my boss (nor do I feel it is necessarily my business), I DO know I was quite shocked to learn how LITTLE they actually make off the fish in terms of a percentage. And it really is a VERY small percentage.

Sure, you can go to a store and pay $50 for a "rare" 4cm electric yellow, or alternatively go to our store and pay $15-$20 for a yellow with exceptional colouring (and just as a side note, I put a WTB for an electric yellow in the classifieds before I started work at the shop and the only breeder who pm'd me wanted $20 for an E. yellow. The same price as the store I work at and much poorer quality from what I have been told). Ultimately it is up to the individual whether they are indeed willing to pay the prices that the LFS sets. I think some of you need to realise that a LFS really does need to make somewhere around $9000 in order to make it viable, now thats a whole lot of $20 electric yellows!!!!

I dont think that ALL LFS know what they are talking about, or even that they are nice people. I am well aware some are in fact NOT very nice people and revel in the opportunity to put the screws on someone who doesnt know any better, but as I said, they have a business to run and ultimately the consumer has the power to say yes or no to the sale. The consumer ALSO has the ability to ring around for themselves and compare prices just the same as I used to do before working in an LFS.

In terms of bad advice, I admit that this is a tricky area as many LFS, particularly chain stores and pet stores that simply sell fish, tend to hire people who have very very little real knowledge about the fish they sell or do not seem to have even kept a cichlid in their life. Being that many people's first contact with cichlids takes place in their LFS, it is a shame that many shops DO have poor stock and give poor advice however not ALL stores are like this. My boss will only employ hobbyists who love their fish, know their fish and are more than capable of giving decent advice. Im not going to sit here and tell you that you can come into the store, ask me a question and I will know the answer 100% of the time, because I DO NOT know everything about cichlids. However my love for the hobby, and my passion and interest in what I do means that I am more than happy to be corrected and learn something new. I learn something new about fish or the hobby in general every day, partly from experience looking after the stock and partly because my boss is like a walking cichlid encyclopedia In an ideal world all LFS staff would have broad knowledge of their stock and have the consumer/hobbyists best interests at heart, but this is not an ideal world and not all LFS care about the hobby. BUT, you are reading this post and as such KNOW that there is indeed shops out there who DO care, DO have low prices and DO stock fish that you probably would have some trouble getting your hands on yourself. The proof is in the sponsorship!

Back to aquria goods. If you wish to purchase products online as opposed to in-store then that is your choice, however as many of you seem to agree, there is ALWAYS a place for LFS. Not everyone HAS access to the internet or even KNOWS of any online stores. Beyond that, just as it is important to know a good LFS from a bad one, by the same token there is some VERY pricey on-line stores which are as expensive as many actual LFS'. And, for example, if I want to buy just one bottle of melafix, I'm hardly going to buy from an internet store and pay $10 freight only to have to wait for delivery when I could go to my LFS and pick-up the melafix in person the same day for virtually the same cost as the item + freight.

As for whole-salers, whilst I aknowledge the awesome work of people like Nigel and the service the do to the hobbyist, the store I work at has fish I have NEVER seen before, let alone even advertised as being bred on these forums. I ALSO know that I can walk into work and pick-up a SINGLE imported male with awesome colours as opposed to having to go to the trouble of ordering it in myself (if I can even order just one fish), paying freight, waiting for quarrantine etc. regardless of how painless and friendly hobbyist-friendly people like Nigel make it. I remember the trouble I had finding male display peacocks on this forum back when I had my peacock tank. To me, that is a perfect example of where LFS come in. Whilst there is a wide variety of fish available from other breeds, sometimes its worth paying SLIGHTLY more than what you would from a breeder in order to get the fish you want in the time frame you want.

Im not going to prattle on anymore, but I just felt the need to throw in my 2cents. I myself am very impressed with the way my boss loves the hobby, loves the fish, supports the hobby (by keeping great imports, sponsoring this site and the various clubs and by keeping their prices reasonable), knows the hobby and has a REAL interest in supporting hobbyists as a group. YES my boss has a business to run, YES they have a SMALL mark-up to adequately support and run their business, but by the same token, YES they do introduce people to the hobby, YES they do provide access to rare and high quality stock, YES they do provide great advice, YES they are convenient, YES they do care about the hobby and the hobbyist and more importantly YES they are hobbyist themself.

You dont have to agree with me, I dont feel the need to convince every single one of you that I am right, now do I feel the need to argue my point. All I am saying is that there are LFS out there who give a damn, and there is most definately a place for LFS in the hobby. We are very lucky to have stores like our sponsors out there and I myself think the hobby would suffer if they werent out there.

Anyway, thanks for reading my rant

[Ducksta]

I think your SHIFT button might be STICKING Blake

[BlakeyBoyR]

SORRY mate Hehehehe, I had to get my emphasis across somehow right? And dont pick on me, Im buying you beer

[Serial-Cichlid]

Sure, you can go to a store and pay $50 for a "rare" 4cm electric yellow, or alternatively go to our store and pay $15-$20 for an imported yellow with exceptional colouring

Just out of curiosity, where is your store importing Electric yellows from?

Cheers

Paul

[BlakeyBoyR]

The post has been edited because I'm not 100% sure where theyre purchased/imported/source from, Im really not. However I am under the impression theyre either imports themselves from German bloodlines or the off-spring of imported yellows *shrug* As I said, Im new there and I dont it all yet, Im still learning

[Nigel]

I love this forum the things i read really make me laugh at times. Most of you people have way to much time on your hands.

[Serial-Cichlid]

Here's an article on the history of yellow labs Blakey:

L. caeruleus history article

Supposedly there's more in aquariums than there are out in the lake.

Cheers

Paul

[BlakeyBoyR]

Thanks for the article mate. I read a bit about them in Ad's Malawi Cichlids 3rd Edition book but as I said, Im always ready to learn

[Serial-Cichlid]

I am under the impression theyre either imports themselves from German bloodlines or the off-spring of imported yellows *shrug* As I said, Im new there and I dont it all yet, Im still learning

I think you'll find they've been selectively line bred here in Australia and possibly imported (?) from wholesalers interstate. Although you haven't mentioned which LFS you work for I can take a good guess and if it's the LFS I'm thinking of then yes the yellows are of good quality.

Cheers

Paul

[pride]

Blake you may just get a payrise at work for that post mate

[BlakeyBoyR]

Hahahaha, I KNEW someone would say that! I honestly didnt say all that to "crawl" so to speak, I just believe that what I said is true. That is partly why I did not mention who I work for, I did not want my post to come across as one big glaring endorsement for the LFS or my boss. I also didn't think it was important to mention which LFS I work for to make my point. I only wanted to make clear that there are indeed LFS out there who do a good job and give a hoot about the hobby as a whole, case and point our sponsors

[gswalker]

Blakey who do you work for? it seems to me its the people that are in the business of selling fish for a profit are defending the whole LFS thing and the rest who can get them cheaper by buying off breeders are on the other side, so whats the point of this then?i just think it comes down to preference, and if you want to make big money I would suggest fish isnt the way to go, I havent read a book yet about a fish Billionaire selling secrets of the fish trade haha

[pride]

Blake,

Just giving you a razz mate. I'm pretty much 99% sure on the LFS you work for and I'm always very impressed with the product and service I get there.

[Mazimbwe]

it seems to me its the people that are in the business of selling fish for a profit are defending the whole LFS thing and the rest who can get them cheaper by buying off breeders are on the other side, so whats the point of this then?

Not accurate gs,

there are at least 3 posters in this thread who do not work in LFS's who are saying that there are LFS's that are an important factor in the hobby and to the aquarist.

[gswalker]

Not accurate gs,

there are at least 3 posters in this thread who do not work in LFS's who are saying that there are LFS's that are an important factor in the hobby and to the aquarist

Fair enough then

[Gav]

my opinion is simple. without lfs there would be no hobby. how many people actually got into fish from going to a lfs? and how many from other hobbyists? I would guess nearly all started at the local lfs......

so I think they are critically important. the reason fish are cheap is because there is a large supply of fish around. thats just common sense economics. the reason for that large supply is there is high demand, fish used to be worth a lot, people wanted to cash in so they started breeding. most breeders means more supply. so obviously prices come down. the only fish that have a high market value are those not in good supply. they are the ones everyone wants to make a quick buck, and sure enough the price comes down. so, where is that demand coming from? it sure as hell ain't hobbyists. realistically we have maybe a few thousand australia wide. generally they are tight as a (insert non G rated comment here). its retail shops that provide the demand for the fish hobbyists try to breed and then sell. how well would anyone with a few hundred fry do without that demand? it coultn't be much fun having loads of fish sitting around and growing while you pour money into them in the way of food, heating, filtration etc. who would even bother breeding if you can't even cover costs (what we would all like to be able to do). if people stopped breeding, what then? who would still breed, what would happen to prices? I can only see them going up.

lets be realistic people always find something to complain about, and the easiest thing to complain about is the evil capitalist b@$7@rd$ that are making a fortune in their retail fish outlets while us poor hobbyists just want a better deal cos life is oh so harsh....

so to sum it up, my opinion is long live the lfs, as without it the hobby would be in one hell of a mess.

[midnightexpress]

Gav

a lot of people that i know started this hobby after seeing my cichlids,they got advise from me which they saved a lot of money.I only wish i started this hobby after seeing other cichlid freaks like me.but I got lots of bad advise from people who was interested in their own pockets,thats just my bad luck.I think in genaral people who start this hobby through lfs don't really get the advise that they need but I must say not all the lfs are like that.from my experiance i think there are about 5 good one in sydney & a hell of a lot bad ones.

[Gav]

I also believe there is some atrocious lfs out there, and even at the good ones there is some far from satisfactory service at times. still they all serve a purpose, and none can be that bad, as usually the really bad ones go out of business quick smart. ultimately my opinion is that the reason we all enjoy such good prices is because of shops. people sell within the hobby at close to or just above what they can get for those fish if selling to a shop. shops entirely set the market on what fish are worth, cos they are the ones that create the biggest demand for fish.

[Tommi]

hi,

The think i dont really get is for some equipment and those Aqua-one AR tanks, some or even few shop sell's them at unbelievable high price.

eg, an Aqua-one AR 620, the shop sells them for over $300. when it cost like $40ish AUD oversea -- dont even want to know what the wholesale price would be-

Of course their is the expand of shipping and rent of the shop etc. But still thats a joke.

That goes for some equipment as well. Just as filters.

However dont get me wrong, there is lots of other LFS that are heaps good. That i purchase all random aquarium related stuff from.

[Dark Morelia]

Not accurate gs,

there are at least 3 posters in this thread who do not work in LFS's who are saying that there are LFS's that are an important factor in the hobby and to the aquarist.

Then there's me.

Always the Black Sheep

I also didn't get into the hobby from LFS either.

Maz, how about we agree to disagree about the extent that we each feel LFS's are required ?

And Blake, are you gonna name the shop ? If not, then please PM me....

It'll be good to know another good shop to visit on my all too infrequent rounds

Andy.

[herefishiefishie]

My 2 cents, cheers to all, I loved the laughs.

like cichlids_au says "they need us more than we need them!!!!!

ask any shop where cichlids come on the list of sales. after tropicals, goldfish, bettas,drygoods...be at best 5th.

and i know those shops get their fish from that wholesaler. You work out the numbers ,The petshop i work part-time

thats right part-time ask to have a look at running costs, u know where your shop gets fish from, none others.

If you can't identify the disease, you obviously have a computer with internet access...... LOOK IT UP...

no wonder your part time, you could be getting advice off someone who thinks he knows it all, could only be in the hobby 2 years.....

Even blind Freddy can see Retail prices everywhere are climbing to just plain ridiculous heights.

In Brisbane, LFS can compete with AOA eg;Cannister filters same price. I'd hate to be your boss

I don't want to be a part of the insatiable "need" for more profits... the slowly rising markups, the deceptions.

finally, I'd say good bye ll (read Akroyds post)

can you show me a retail industry that dosent have huge mark ups. Surf stores, petrol, alcohol, .....

ps; next time you visit a LFS ask what type of Car they drive

I do however trust online or magazine reviews from people who have used something I'm looking to buy

I hope they arent sponsors of the site or magizine???

OK, so it would also go that there are a lot of people out that owe their LFS a jolly good ripping off then

,

We do free water tests, do our best to find rare goodies, ship fish interstate, & have a guarantee on our livestock

Every single one of us on the admin or mod team are simply hobbyists,

You said it, & please dont speak for the rest of us.

Breeder selling to breeder = No need for LFS

Where did all these fish magicaly appear from??

If you read Akroyds post shops tend to charge what they have to not what they want to. Places like the Gold Coast & Brisbane have seen a few shops come & go in recent times. Its not an easy industry, if you think there is so much profit open a shop yourself

I am glad to see some like Merjo, Akroyd, Flashgordan, Mazimbwe,Blake...have commonsense.

Frenchy

[herefishiefishie]

My 2 cents, cheers to all, I loved the laughs.

like cichlids_au says "they need us more than we need them!!!!!

ask any shop where cichlids come on the list of sales. after tropicals, goldfish, bettas,drygoods,plants...be at best 6th( we have a 10,2,2 african display)

and i know those shops get their fish from that wholesaler. You work out the numbers ,The petshop i work part-time

thats right part-time ask to have a look at running costs, u know where your shop gets fish from, none others.

If you can't identify the disease, you obviously have a computer with internet access...... LOOK IT UP...

no wonder your part time, you could be getting advice off someone who thinks he knows it all, could only be in the hobby 2 years.....

Even blind Freddy can see Retail prices everywhere are climbing to just plain ridiculous heights.

In Brisbane, LFS can compete with AOA eg;Cannister filters same price. I'd hate to be your boss

I don't want to be a part of the insatiable "need" for more profits... the slowly rising markups, the deceptions.

finally, I'd say good bye ll (read Akroyds post)

can you show me a retail industry that dosent have huge mark ups. Surf stores, alcohol, .....

ps; next time you visit a LFS ask what type of Car they drive

I do however trust online or magazine reviews from people who have used something I'm looking to buy

I hope they arent sponsors of the site or magizine???

OK, so it would also go that there are a lot of people out that owe their LFS a jolly good ripping off then

,

We do free water tests, do our best to find rare goodies, ship fish interstate, & have a guarantee on our livestock

Every single one of us on the admin or mod team are simply hobbyists,

You said it, & please dont speak for the rest of us.

Breeder selling to breeder = No need for LFS

Where did all these fish magicaly appear from??

If you read Akroyds post shops tend to charge what they have to not what they want to. Places like the Gold Coast & Brisbane have seen a few shops come & go in recent times. Its not an easy industry, if you think there is so much profit open a shop yourself

I am glad to see some like Merjo, Akroyd, Flashgordan, Mazimbwe,Blake...have commonsense.

Frenchy

[Dark Morelia]

*Erases the huge great block of text he'd typed*

There are shops worth supporting, and shops not worth visiting, let alone supporting.

People can make their own minds up what they want to do.

They don't need it preached on them.

Nor should people be preaching when they don't even know the half of someone else's life/work situation.

The way i see it, LFS's can function without Cichlid Hobbyists, and Cichlid Hobbyists can function without LFS's.

I have nothing more to say on this subject, other than i agree completely with Andy's, Ducksta's, Blake's and Cichlids_au's posts.

Although i am not as good at wording it as they were.

I admit that I have erred greatly in my previous posts in this topic.

Just proves i'm human, though sometimes it pains me to admit it.

Andy.