LFS and Cichlids

[Mpimbwe Pete]

Recently had a discussion with the principal of a regional Pet Shop who opined that there was no point in getting cichlids as "no-one buys them." When I visit the Big Smoke in Sydney I see huge retail prices asked for but many of my friends in the hobby are more likely to buy from each other than from a shop. Are we damaging the pet shop proprietors who might be more interested in getting in a wider selection of Cichlids. Sadly the bottom line is that the variety and quality of shop specimens seems to be deteriorating while the quality of the hobbyists specimens is of a much higher standard .The only way around it is to deal almost exclusively with fellow cichlid people .

If more shops went to the trouble of setting up display tanks with mature specimens at their best the general public would be more likely to buy more interesting fish. I would appreciate any comments from both sides.

I want the shops to make money but sometimes Big City prices seem way too high.

[gswalker]

I agree, why goto a LFS when you can get it half the price from a hobbyist, also they are in better condition from a hobbyist as the really care for the fish, in saying that I have seen some great looking fish in LFS but also appalling ones as well, I spose it depends how much your willing to pay for the fish you want, I for one wouldnt pay too much I would rather wait for people to breed them then usually the price comes down. but hey thats just me, Also for Americans its easier to go through hobbyists as LFS dont sell many of them cause they arnt "popular"

[Sarah]

i find a lot of aquarium stores here in Vic have a poor selection of cichlids compared to Sydney, a lot are in poor condition , like electric yellows havent found any decent ones in a store most dont even look yellow in colour. There arent any stores here that come close to St George and Lams in size . And a lot of stores dont even stock tangs as apparently there is little demand for them here . I went to one recommended aquarium store here on the weekend a while back and there were no lights on , on any of the tanks and the shop was dimily lit .

well at least i stocked up at the VCS auction last Saturday

cheers

[catcher]

This subject is a tough call, as most of us would attest to, when we started out we all would of bought some stock from the LFS. Then after a short time the bug catches you and you become more interested in the "life and science" behind the fish rather than just the "look pretty" part.

Now, when this happens you look for advise from other hobbiest, and where do you get that, right here. My point is that when you become more involved, you get exposed to forums like ours and that inevitably leads to the "for sale" section attached. Since that time I haven't bought a single fish from the LFS, my main reason is that you can talk to the breeder and get the guff on what you want first hand. I have met many nice people in LFS's and most very helpfull, so don't think this post is a put down, it's just you don't get that "this person has reared these from day one feeling" if you know what i mean. So, you end up with a bit more confidence in the fish's history.

We can't do without LFS's, I mean where would you get all your gear from, whether internet sales or over the counter. So, I can understand both sides, it's ashame a balance in terms of variety and pricing for fish can't be reached.

From my short time in this great hobbie, there seems to be a vastly better variety and quality of fish with the hobbiest rather than the LFS's.

But that's just my opinion.

cheers

glenn

[Sarah]

well i dont have any cichlid breeders near me alas, and as auctions here in Vic are only bi annual, i do buy some fish from a lfs and i have a fairly good one near me , he has smart looking shop and i have also bought my 6x18x18set up from him on the weekend so that is one lfs i will frequent as the service and quality is excellent .

[discusdude]

If more shops went to the trouble of setting up display tanks with mature specimens at their best the general public would be more likely to buy more interesting fish. I would appreciate any comments from both sides.

I totally agree with this. People have absolutely no idea what most cichlids are like fully grown. At least africans have a bit of colour when young, most Americans are just greyish brown.

People will never buy what they cannot see, and if they cant see colourful good-looking mature fish, they wont buy the young.

[gswalker]

I totally agree with this. People have absolutely no idea what most cichlids are like fully grown. At least africans have a bit of colour when young, most Americans are just greyish brown.

People will never buy what they cannot see, and if they cant see colourful good-looking mature fish, they wont buy the young.

Totally agree as well ESPECIALLY with American cichlids

[Sarah]

i reckon whats needed on each tank is a little display card the size of a business card or bit bigger giving a brief outline of the fish requirements for eg and a adult pic of it. This would ensure that people didnt mix the wrong fish together and had the right size tank for it.I have seen some lfs do this but its rare.

cheers

[Teamsherman]

Im on the thought that the fish should be kept as a private trade. Its been said heaps already, that the fact is with private breeders/sellers the quality of fish is usually remarkably higher than that of specimens taken from shops.

Its the same with reptiles, when they are sold in shops the quality of reptile is usually lower than if they are bought from private breeders.

Im just glad reptiles arent allowed to be sold in shops here in NSW.

But back to fish, keep it in the family i say.

Cheers, Alan.

[Sarah]

well if you go with that idea eventually there will be fewer and fewer aquarium stores as they will go out of business , i dont know if one would want that to happen .

[Willy Wombat]

Businesses should do what is best for them - to help themselves stay in business. We fish freaks have to appreciate that there are certain bread and butter species that keep some stores in business. If they dont make money from a species then they shouldnt stock it.

Although having said that i do think many LFS do cichlids no justice by:

1. not setting them up to look their best (poor water conditions, etc) -

2. not displaying full sized animals (the majority of cichlids only look good when they reach maturity) - even if they showed a photograph of what a fish will look like when full sized this would help

3. They are charging way too much.

These things all decrease customer interest and create a viscious circle of underperformance.

[Cichlids_au]

I see the problem this way.

There are basically 2 groups of people out there that buy fish. Those that like the look of them and impulse buy and us Cichlidiots.

Cichlidiots are basically your hobbyist and you will find most of this group is frugal in the way they go about running their set-ups. This results in the inability to justify purchases from shops because the retail pricing is too high. We tend to use as many DIY methods as possible to bring overheads down.

Impulse Buyers are the group that walk past a shop and little Johnny spots a pretty fish and nags Mum to get it for them. This group will spend money in a big way, and invariably return to replace livestock that “mysteriously died”

Now if you’re in business you need to target your market. If they fail to display and give post sale support then they will go belly up, it’s as simple as that.

Now, if you intend to target the Cichlidiot then you are targeting the least likely group to make purchases.

This has been a topic with the NSWCS and I can assure you that there is a variety of opinions held on this topic. My personal view is that we have it all around the wrong way. It’s the shops that need us, not the other way around.

Shops like St George and Fish4U have a good relationship with the hobbyist because they know what we know. We sell Cichlids to them cheaper than the wholesalers do. We are local and just a phone call away. We are the ones that create the market by displaying good fish in a healthy environment.

They are the ones that benefit from our activities, it is not the other way around.

I believe that they need us more than we need them.

[Nigel]

There is also the other side to this debate. If you dont support aquarium shops then thay wont buy fish from importers and wholesalers and there will be no new fish brought in. So the way i see it stop beinging cheap and go spend some money. At the end of the day you cant take it with you when you die. What a bunch of cheapskates there is in this hobby.

[Mazimbwe]

This is a great topic...

We have also discussed it at perth-cichlid-forums with some interesting views put forward...Here was/is mine;

For me...when I first started breeding fish, it went like this;

-I rarely sold fish for cash.

-If at all possible I would ask for shop credit as a way of cultirvating a freindship/relationship with the people who will, hopefully, be taking the bulk of my fish in the future.

-Did a bit of shopping on the phone to see who would gimme the best deal.

-Tried a few LFS's...some gave a better "All-Round" deal.

-Argued little(or not at all) about price...because I am not trying to make money from my hobby.

As a result;

-I rarely have strangers in my house...some of us Cicho's are strange tho. 

-If/when I need something in an emergency, for my fish, I can get it...even when I have no money and no credit.

-My hobby is basically cost free because the fish I do sell for cash goes to off-set the costs of power/water. My credit at the LFS's works to keep the cash in my pockets, by paying for Flake-food/Frozen-food/Pellet-food/medication/fish/tanks/filter-media/Filters/Heaters.

-I am in touch with my LFS's on a regular basis so they know what I have coming up to Sale-size soon...& I know what they are looking for, so I can help my friends too.

-If anything comes in that the guys at the shop know I want I get a phone-call

-I rarely have a problem with getting rid of my fry.

-I've met some great people.

-Get help/advice from people who see/deal with problems every day that I see once a year.

-Etc, etc, etc...

As I see it there is also some benefits to the LFS...but that would be for someone else to say. 

But the people who I got along with may not be the same as who others decide look after them.

At the end of the day it is up to all of us to develop our Network of Cichlid contacts. But more importantly it is also up to us to maintain them...ALL of them.

And...

If you get to know the people, thru being a regular customer and/or by building a rapore, you will know who to speak to.

If you look after good people, good people will look after you.

I try ensure it is a 2 way street in my Cichlid-Network and that is why I got involved in a club (tell it to the hand  ) and why I am active on these forums. Cichlids are not a short-term hobby, by any means so the mates you make with other Cicho's are likely to be long term too. 

And the same applies with the LFS's.

HTH

[ViS]

There is also the other side to this debate. If you dont support aquarium shops then thay wont buy fish from importers and wholesalers and there will be no new fish brought in. So the way i see it stop beinging cheap and go spend some money. At the end of the day you cant take it with you when you die. What a bunch of cheapskates there is in this hobby.

But if I go and spend my money at the lfs, there won't be any left to buy wildcaught fish from you.......

[midnightexpress]

nigel it's not about being cheapskate it's about been fair.I sell fish to the lfs then they sell the fish to their customers on a 500% mark up "is that fair".I go to one fish shop they sell eheim 2217classic filter for $345. and then I go to a anather they sell for $220."is that fair".I go to the hardware they sell 20mm clear filter hose for $2. a metre,when the lfs sells it for $7."is that fair".they got no one to blame but them selfs. you sell fish from africa,they sell the same fish bread here for 200% more than you do is that far.

[Josh]

Nigel.

I think its not just about be cheapskates. The problems is that the variety and the quality is not always there. I like to support my LFS, but when they try to sell me tropheus at $250 each when I want to order 25, Its a bit hard to support them. I know what the fish price was at the time on the wholesale list, and their price was nearly 5 times over that. I understand they have to order the fish and have them shipped but $200 profit per fish is a little extreme. Then I turn around and find a local breeder who has top quality fish and could do the fish at about twice the wholesale price. thats a $4000 dollar saving. I know this not the norm, but it happens. There are great shops i have ordered fish through who have done them at nearly wholesale price.

As for cichlids in stores, I can understand why stores dont stock them. Imagine walking into a store that was selling juvinile fish say, electric Blues, a few different types of peacocks, just about any of the large americans and the you turn around and see gold fish guppies tetras and so on. What will the people by? I know the cichlids will show great colour when the grow but you could have a heap of tanks with fish that look very similar. Stores cant afford to sell fish at the price breeders sell them. But at the same time maybe the breeders should think about the prices they sell their fish to the stores and make sure they dont sell to the general public at the same price. this will P@#$ off the stores and stop them by any cichlids from any breeders. I know some breeders are wery of this but I dont know if all are.

You only have to go back a few months and think that we only had one aquarium as a sponsor of this site and the rest were all wholesalers. There is a big business, these days, Its called online shopping. Fish-4-u have realised this and I know of other stores that have gone the same way. I think it will only be a matter of time before someone starts an online fish store like they have overseas. Stores will have to realise that business practices over the next few years are going to change and they will have to change as well

Anyway I say Support them why you can. But at the end of the day my moneys better off in my pocket

Josh

[Sarah]

hmm there is really no such thing as being fair in retail its a business after all, and aquarium stores dont all have the same overheads , and you cant really compare bunnings prices for eg with that of a lfs , bunnings are huge organisation that order in huge quantities. and therefore get the product at a better price. As for large items eheims and tanks it just pays to shop around.

[midnightexpress]

sarah I bet you your lfs sells more plastic hose than your hardware because people have got more $ than sence.

[Sarah]

my lfs would sell more setups then anything besides fish as they are one of the best priced , as for hose they dont sell it

[Ant]

The problem is that whole sale price on fish is way too high. Also, alot of shops are very strict on their percentage of profit. In SA the mark up of fish shops averages around 200% (ie. $6 e-blue= $24 Retail). Given high whole sale prices and unreasonable profit margins, prices skyrocket. Another problem with fish prices is the amout of fish that die days after delivery from whole salers. This forces shops to raise there profit margin up to 300% if need be. With all this occuring people tend not to buy cichlids because they see prices like $25 for a single (small) e-blue. They'd rather get a red tail shark for $10. This is why i encourage breeders to develop a loyalty to their LFS's and sell them fish below whole sale price. Fish shop owners will prefure to keep the money in the state and recieve better quality fish at a lower price. This will help prevent hybrid fish coming into the market also.

Someone mentioned earlier thet display tanks will result in better fish sales. That is sooooo true. Impulse is a powerfull force in selling fish.

Anthony

PS: i believe 100% profit is reasonable

[Mazimbwe]

ME, you sound very bitter.

Perhaps the answer for you is to not deal with the LFS's that are treating you like a Mug, by charging 5 times the purchase cost of the fish, and going elsewhere?!

As for what it costs to import fish, including loss's and medication and all the other stuff that goes with import-risks, Nigel would be able to tell you heaps of Horror stories that have cost plenty...I have no doubt of that, even tho I have never spoken to Nigel about it.

I would never buy Tropheus from a LFS, unless they had organised an importation for me which I doubt I would do, so I think that is a hard example to use.

Without even talking about fish, for a moment, what about all the stuff the LFS carries for you that bunnings don't???

If you create a good rapore with your LFS(by shopping there trading there, talking there, etc, etc), if they/you are worth doing business with, you should not be treated like a "one-off" customer.

BTW, after doing a bit of Part-time helping at My LFS I developed a new level of respect for many others...not all but many.

[midnightexpress]

I would like to put this point across,Nigel imports fish into australia

1-he pays he's supplier

2-he pays to get them here

3-he pays customs

4-he houses them till it's ready to be sold.

5-he make a profite

but the lfs buys fish of us and sells them to the public 200% more than nigels sells his fish for,who is gready?

ps.I agree with anthony 100% profit is

[Mazimbwe]

Fish shop owners will prefure to keep the money in the state and recieve better quality fish at a lower price.

If only that were true everywhere Ant.

I am frustrated, quite often, by some LFS's who would rather buy from a wholesaler than a breeder.

There is also a risk associated, for the LFS & species-purity, with taking fish from the public...not everyone has scruples and they do get burned.

[akroyd]

Hello All,

Here's a copy of a post on the Qld forum on the same topic:

A typical medium size LFS would need a minimum of three full time staff, since they would need to trade on W/E & public holidays, hiring costs like super, sick days & annual leave add about 30% to a basic wage. so you could expect a permanent employee wages bill of about $125 000 p.a. add to that the 7 weeks for leave, public holidays & sick days you then need casuals for 35 days, so theres about another $4500, for each permanent employee.

Min rent to expect for a medium sized shop in a retail area (third rate retail) about $30 000 p.a.

Electricity in a well run shop will avg $6000 p.a.

Water usage about $1500 p.a.

Because you cant afford prime retail you need to advertise. Yellow pages, papers.... $4000 p.a.

you'll need 2 phone lines, ph/fax. ...$3000 p.a.

You'll need an accountant & a bookkeeper for the GST & BAS, about $5000p.a.

to set up decent shop $100 000, & will fully depreciate in about 7 years, thats a cost of $15 000 p.a.

Public liability insurance these days is about $2500 p.a.

Printing, bank fees, registrations,......about $3000p.a.

An acceptable return for the risk involved would be 30%, ie. $30 000 p.a on your $100 000 invested

An estimated of total gross profit required, therefore is

$258 500 p.a.

you would expect dry stock to be relatively cut throat because of on-line sales & discount back-yarders. so maybe if you're lucky, you can mark up dry goods by 80%. Thats 44% gross profit.

Guess would be 1/2 sales livestock, 1/2 dry stock.

If you mark up fish 300% & allow for 5% losses, gross profit on live stock is about 70%.

Average gross profit will be 57%.

to pay bills of $258 500 @ 57% G.P., you'll need a turnover of $453 509 p.a., or about $8720 nett, every week, or $9592/week GST inc.

The sales required seems like a fairly big ask for a medium sized shop, & you'ld need to be pretty sharp, & experienced to make sure that your costs didn't blow out, so I personally would be looking to mark up livestock by 350%.

that means if you buy a fish as a retailer for $5.70 you have to sell at $25.65, or prepare to bleed to death slowly.

You should also bear in mind that the $30 000 in profit that I factored in for the LFS owner is before interest $7500, & tax $7500, leaving a real profit of $15 000.

A profit of $288 per week from a turnover of $9592 per week equates to a nett profit of 3%, & that is only in a week when the store turns over $9592. If they sell less, they are probably paying you to take their fish.

When you compare the ease of putting up a shed in the backyard, then breeding & selling on the net, then passing of leftovers, unwanted fish.... to a LFS. I think a backyarder selling at more than 20% of retail is a rip off, when compared with the difficulties faced by store owners.