Lee Miller Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 Hi all, I’m posting here because ‘chat’ is not permitted in the classifieds. Once again someone (a newbie who possibly just needs to be set straight on these things) is advertising mbuna (demasoni) for sale at 1cm (quite reasonably priced though). I’ve heard some horror stories of late about sales of mbuna that were only just beyond egg-sack stage. Survival rates have just got to suffer, as have the fish. Any thoughts? Should a moderator tap the seller on the shoulder and have a quiet word? Stepping down from soap box now. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 Lee I recently sent some demasoni at 1-1.5cm to Melbourne. This was an experiment as much as anything and was between mates, not as a "sale". We have both been surprised at the hardiness of the fish travelling at that size. What we didn't count on was the fish knocking each other off so easily at such a size in the new small confines. I believe and I think the recipient agrees with me, that the bulk of the mortalities in the fish were caused by aggression in transit and not directly due to some weakness at that size. (As an aside, these fish were not purged like I would larger fish, only for about 20 hours, I don't believe their metabolism copes well with hunger at this age.) I do not recommend this kind of thing though, and asking money for fish which (IMO and I have bred them in good numbers now) would have only been released by a holding mum inside a month ago is something I don't think I will ever do. In the same breath though, if someone is prepared to buy them, and at the sellers asking price (they are notably reduced in price to what I, and others, charge for their larger cousins) then what do I care? There may also be circumstances demanding the fish be offloaded with a minimum of delay. I would rather see sales listed at 1cm where a buyer can make an informed decision regarding whether or not they can adequately take the fish on, than sales listed at incorrect sizes where a buyer then has to rethink his housing strategy to cope with poorly measured fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danpri Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 2.5-3cm minimum, I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 i was wondering how long it would take for a reaction to that thread . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardukar Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I think the fish needs to be big enough to check its standard and wether it is in good health without abnormalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anchar Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I agree with all the comments made above...around 3cm would be minimum. However, if the sale was between experienced hobbyists who accept the risks and are capable of "special" considerations/care, then 1cm is fine too. I had some 1cm mbuna sent to me from NSW by a forum member whom I trust. They are all prospering, breeding etc. here in Perth 12 months on. So I guess it is up to the individuals concerned. Andrea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 i was wondering how long it would take for a reaction to that thread My reply to the post was removed quickly I agree with Sardukar's thinking and would never buy fish that small unless the fish where only 2-3cm when fully grown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilal Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 the guy selling the fish has been in the hobby for at least 5 years , so his not a newbie. another thing is that the fish are larger then 1cm their at least 2cm and the larger ones are 2.5cm.when he sells his fish he always advertises them smaller then what they really are,unlike alot of people in this hobby.i recently swapped my polits for a pair of peppermints from simon and he told they were around the 5cm mark and when we measured them one was 8.5cm the other 7cm so i think you know were im coming from. who ever is interested in some demansoni give him a call and go view them,your not going to lose anything and only going to get a bargin . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I think you made some good points Omar but to state a fish is only 1-1.5cm is going to cause an riot on this forum. At that size i would at least advertise them at 2cm and save the hassle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilal Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I think you made some good points Omar but to state a fish is only 1-1.5cm is going to cause an riot on this forum. At that size i would at least advertise them at 2cm and save the hassle ← yeah i know what you mean good luck to him selling them and how ever buys them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatoscarlover Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Yeah Ducksta`s man in melbourne is me, and im 95% sure the drop off`s were only due to aggression There would have been 45-60 @1cm and i reckon ive still got 30 kicking (now 2 weeks later) so im pretty happy! Nearly all the ones which died were already skinned and eye less by the time i got them out of the bags, so maybe there not the right fish to be sending at 1cm in a small bag but i think between freinds (and serious hobbiests) its "doable" with the right species but probably not the best idea. The Boronia Forums were thinking about writting some sort of ethical standards into there guidelines. Weve had a few people trying to sell BN @1cm and some american fry which had just become free swimming but when we explained to the members and clearly showed the diffrence between a 2 week old BN and a 2 month old BN, even the sellers agreed they shouldnt be selling them yet. I think youve got to presume ignorance and explain it to them, if they chose to continue to do it then there isnt alot you can do except hope that no-one buys them. I think we should have some sort of a "ethical guidelines" so in these situation we can remind them that what there doing may be considered un-ethical by alot of fish keepers and may be detremental to the fish`s health, i think it would be unfair to lock a post and say "contact him in 6 weeks when the fry are ready" when we have no idea how big they will be then either, it really is a case of "buyer beware" but also reminding them that in the eyes of alot of people in the hobby they will be acting "unethicaly". Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danpri Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Should we have a list, somewhere in the forums of species to be bagged separately? I know Tropheus and some other cichlid species are often shipped in small bags with oxygen this way. Might help some newbies out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parkesg Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Hey The guy selling them is not a newbie and I have known him for several years - he is a very good fish keeper. I also agree with Hilal in that he is understating the size of his fish - I was at his house on the weekend and the demasoni are very good quality and a good size - just too cheap. As someone who has bought many fish of many different people in the hobby I definitely prefer to be underquoted the size and when I go to pick them up be pleasantly surprised - too many times I have bought fish and told they are 3 cm's and when I have picked them up they are 2cm. That is unethical and happens too often in the hobby. If he wants to sell fish at that size it is his prerogative - he certainly has adjusted his price to match the size. He is not making any misrepresentations about the sizing. Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 even if the fish are bigger than stated, it is still going to cause issues any time someone advertises fish that small for sale. its all well and good to be conservative in your fish sizing, but quoting fish at half their size is perhaps a little TOO conservative in sizing. usually the best way is to measure the smallest fish and just advertise that as your size, that way people can still be happy when getting larger ones, but you wont be selling under the size you quote.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Guys, To be honest, my demasoni fry are of good quality. I bought the parents from Roland Tarr. Most of the fry ( 95% I would say) have straight bars. To confirm, the 1cm+ fry I advertised are about 1.2cm or so (not 2cm as Omar said). They are not weak fish and not just came out of their mother's mouth with egg sack on their belly. Definitely they are more than 1 month old after the mother spit them out. The mother of these fry has produced another 38 fry 3 days ago. Therefore I need to let go to make room for their younger sibling which is currently in the fry saver. Also I want to make these awesome fish more affordable. Like thropheus, as you all know, the more you have them in the tank, the better. Not all people can afford $200 for 10 demasoni. If you can spend just $50 for 12 fish, why not? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Simon People wont pay $50 if theres a good chance the fish will die. Fry that size are very tempremental when it comes to Ph and temp change and thats, IMHO, where the problem lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stotto Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Not all people can afford $200 for 10 demasoni. If you can spend just $50 for 12 fish, why not? Thats a reasonable comment good stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Little Swimmer, good opinion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropheusQueen Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Hi all, I was the first to reply to the original post, prior to it's deletion as 'chit chat' and commented then what a bargain they were at this price. Demasoni only made a comeback into the hobby a couple of years ago and I snapped them up then as I love them dearly . The fact that they have held their market value is testament to their beauty but also their nature, as most can have difficulty in rearing these demons. Though they take extra care however, we are definately seeing more and more in the market although I have noticed a deterioration of quality in some strains as well. Breeding both these and Tropheus which places the dollars at the mid-high range of the market, my only concern with price drops of that nature or comments such as "if you can spend $50 on 12 fish" make me wary. I too have done deals with IMO reputable fish keepers when larger quantities are bought, however it has been my experience also, that individual's appear to take more care when they pay what the fish is worth on the market. I know of many that have wanted demasoni and found the price prohibitive and the queries have come from the newer sector of the hobby Just my thoughts. Cheers Aline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 simon i applaud you its good to see someone in this hobby that puts the hobby before thier own greed.im a firm believer that fish should belong to people who deserve them not those that can afford them.(unfortunately not a few shared by many) if your not going to buy them why worry.if your not going to buy them then why worry about what simons doing.ive recently recieved a few fish from well known members of this board that were 1 cm or just above and thier all going strong.i find it better to get them at that size because then you can segregate them and raise them in a better environment with less competiton from their siblings.5 to 10 fish will grow faster in a tank as apposed to 20 to 30.the only unethical thng ive seen recently is this post as its done is jepordise simons chance of selling his fish which is a shame. ps.i dont know what everyonesworried about anyway if all goes well all simons fish will die leaving less fish in the market thus keeping the prices of these fish ridculously high .if you dont agree with what ive written above that at least has got to strike a cord with you once again simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 i also agree with what aline said in that the quality of some strains has deteriorated.i think it due to people trying to cash in on them while thier market values still high.indiscriminate breeding in order to profit.its interesting to see that alot of the negative posters are also demasoni sellers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbuna Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 well said yellow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 *EDIT*In the interest of harmony I will remove my own post I guess I am greedy buying and breeding expensive fish I also bought and sold a fair few demasoni and done the right thing with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardukar Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 i'm not sure how this thread got so off topic...but anway I think its up to the buyer; no one is forcing you to buy small fish. And if your buying from someone on these forums, then their bound to be an enthusiast of our great hobby and interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 Well said Simon, IMO if people are willing to buy them at this size with this reduced price then what is the Harm?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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