Ducksta Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 All this talk about prawn sandwishes is making me hungry. ps. stotto - if you volunteer to adopt all my unwanted fry and culls, you can have them no problems. However as big as your heart is, I think 500 convict fry every 3-4 weeks will probably be testing your tank space limits. This offer is only open to stotto since he is on a crusade to stop animal cruelty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardukar Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 I don't really have anything against feeding fish to other fish. Lets get real here, their just fish; not that intelligent especially at such a young age. In the wild this stuff happens all the time. People are willing to cull 'defective' fish, just because they are not perfect. I don't really see the difference, as fish do not feel that much pain and nor are as concious as you and i. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 ducksta im not pointing fingers at you or any one individual im only stirrring to all the demasoni bredders thier your demasoni and at the end of the day you can sell them for whatever you want at whatever size you want.i just found it sad that everyone got into simon for doing something genuine.(especially while his post is still active in the classifieds)how many potential buyers were discouraged by claims that fish at such a size "could" be of poor quality.i seriously doubt that anyone on here would appreciate this sort of stuff when thier trying to sell their fish.if you dont consider yourself an experienced enough hobbiset to raise such fry then take the safe option and buy bigger ones.at that size and that price if you by some chance did get a deformed one who cares the cheaper price should reduce any feeling of anger.if your not prepared to lose money in this hobby than get out now while you still can. simon wanted to move these fish on because he needed the room for more of them.others have said that he should of let those fry in that mouthful die in order to raise his existing ones to a better size.how is that helpful.many breeders have said that thier difficult to breed due to aggression issues so wouldnt it be better get these fish out there and make them more available to the hobby in general rather than letting good fry go to waste just becuase the individual doenst have the storage capacity to rival his fishes reproductive rate? And lastly money doesnt make for good judgement of fish quality.i give away ninety percent of what i breed(many on this board can attest to this) and most of what i keep is of f1 or f2 stock.ive spent the last three years perfecting my strains and what i have now i consider to be of very high quality.if you choose to sell fish at a higher rate than others that doesnt make your fish necessarily better.once again fish should go to those who deserve them not those that can afford them.now thats a good avatar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poxboy Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 Well said . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatoscarlover Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 simon wanted to move these fish on because he needed the room for more of them.others have said that he should of let those fry in that mouthful die in order to raise his existing ones to a better size.how is that helpful.many breeders have said that thier difficult to breed due to aggression issues so wouldnt it be better get these fish out there and make them more available to the hobby in general rather than letting good fry go to waste just becuase the individual doenst have the storage capacity to rival his fishes reproductive rate? Yellow did you read the whole post? a few people have explained why you shouldnt move fry at 1cm, i agree with your theory of getting fish out there cheap and to those who are really into them, and i wouldnt consider the prices i sell fry high either, but all you do by putting 1cm fish into the market is lowering overall quality. As has been said in this post before, how can you pick a deformatiy at 1cm? unless its a massive kink in the spine, you cant! Selling fish @ 1cm doesnt help anybody in the long run.... Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 a quick browse of recent classifieds will show more than a few people around doing just that which is a damn shame. What's that supposed to mean ? ← I am not sure poxboy, and I can't speak for Gav (I think I am on the right track) - but the aspect I find a little bit tougher to swallow than the actual size debate is this... The mother of these fry has produced another 38 fry 3 days ago. Therefore I need to let go to make room for their younger sibling which is currently in the fry saver. ← Now, this might be cheating but I just borrowed this quote from another thread The following are the fish I am currently keeping: Aulonocara stuartgranti 'chiwindi' (breeding) Electric blue Afra cobwe (breeding) Electric yellow (breeding) Ps demasoni (breeding) Ps kingsizei Ps polit Peppermint b/n and common b/n Cyprichromis leptosoma utinta (breeding) Cyprichromis microlepidotus mabilibili (breeding) Alto. calvus (black) Alto. calvus (white) Gold comp But no space to grow another mouthful of fry?? What is the plan when the other 8 species start breeding? Jason - I commend you on your generosity in giving away your fry. But I can assure you plenty of people here do the same. I've done it, in the interest of improving bloodlines and 'spreading the wealth' so to speak. Plenty of members (interstate even) will attest to that. I don't see your point in the context of this debate though. We're talking about very small fish being sold My point all along is that the buyer needs to be able to make an informed decision weighing up the risks of moving fish this size - their general weak(er) nature, more susceptible to shocks and stuff like that The arguments coming back at me, are making me reconsider my stance to saying it is outright wrong when circumstances are weighed up. Maybe in the case where there is no room to grow fry, Sardukar's plan to breed naturally, with fry released in tank to grow 'wild' is the go? These fry will grow much faster too. I think it is like the laws of nature saying grow or be eaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 my main point through all that i have written is this.i dont think its right to publicly critisize simon for selling his fish at a size that you personally dont agree with.if you dont think its right then dont buy them im sure simon wont be affended.all this does is effect simons chances of selling his fish which like ive said in previous posts is something that no one on this board would appreciate. i also stated previously that if you dont consider yourself an experienced enough aquarist to successfully transport these fry home and raise them then once again avoid them and take the safer option of buying larger specimens. its also being said at present that the quality of these fish at that size "could be" questionable and that this sort of behaviour weakens the hobby.how is that the case.i judge fish on the quality of the parents not the fry.i look at the parents and make my assumptions.im sure fans of the aulonocara species(and even keepers of ca's and sa's) would back me on this. yes andy you have a point that at that size you cant properly gauge for deformities but simons adjusted his prices accordingly to take this into account.im sure most of us in htis hobby consider five dollars to be not much of a loss.if your that worried buy one more at that price you can afford to. the only way this could effect the hobby in general is if the buyer once realising that they have bought a deformed fish didnt take the proper measures against it either by culling said fish or by giving it to someone who wont breed from it.if the buyer doesnt do the right thing it is through no fault of simons.how many of us can account for what happens to our fish once they have left our care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatoscarlover Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 my main point through all that i have written is this.i dont think its right to publicly critisize simon for selling his fish at a size that you personally dont agree with.if you dont think its right then dont buy them im sure simon wont be affended.all this does is effect simons chances of selling his fish which like ive said in previous posts is something that no one on this board would appreciate. Your right, this is probably effecting simons sales, but in the case of someone selling 1cm fish, does anyone really care? its also being said at present that the quality of these fish at that size "could be" questionable and that this sort of behaviour weakens the hobby.how is that the case.i judge fish on the quality of the parents not the fry.i look at the parents and make my assumptions.im sure fans of the aulonocara species(and even keepers of ca's and sa's) would back me on this. Thats pretty silly! You dont even look at the fry? Im a big fan of aulonocara and im now keeping 14 diffrent species and most of the time il grow the first batch for a bit longer so i can get a good look at how the fry are coming out, IMO anything else would be irresponsible. Most of my peacocks come from one of australia`s biggest peacock breeders, yet he still says "check the eyes and gill plates" as you catch them out of his tank, why? cause anything less from people who know better is irresponsible! yes andy you have a point that at that size you cant properly gauge for deformities but simons adjusted his prices accordingly to take this into account.im sure most of us in htis hobby consider five dollars to be not much of a loss.if your that worried buy one more at that price you can afford to. Im not worried about losing $5 bucks, im worried about poor quality fish being let onto the market by someone which from the list of species above, should know better! do you really trust all your buyers to cull fish if there deformed? Plenty of people get attched to there culls and let them live out there days, personally i dont trust everyone to do the right thing and as responsible breeders we should be culling our own deformities at a size where there cleary definable. if the buyer doesnt do the right thing it is through no fault of simons.how many of us can account for what happens to our fish once they have left our care? Yes it is! Simon as a responsible hobbiest who after this post will be well aware of the issues envolved in selling 1cm fish, will still do it. I cant account for many fish that have left my place either, but i can be 99.9% sure im not putting out anything which should be considered "cull quality". Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 andy I agree with alot of your arguments & I believe we both have made valid points on the subject. All I simply wanted to state to begin with was that I didnt believe that it was fair & ethical to crucify Simon for trying to sell his fish & deterring potential buyers from purchasing them from him.i dont think anyone else would like it done to them regardless of the reasoning or intentions behind it. I just didnt think that is was a fair thing to do.thats all i have to say on the matter as i now have to focus on getting my photos on here.for what its worth though i enjoyed this debate its been the best thing on this forum in ages.thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatoscarlover Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 Glad to debate it without it becoming an argument Doesnt happen around here often Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 This is a very cranky website. Funny but cranky. It sort of make's us new guys not want to contribute our point of view! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropheusQueen Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 Hi Caesar, It is only certain posts that can bring about some strong points of view but we are a friendly bunch in here, if somewhat opinionated at times . We are passionate about our cichlids and if that is why you joined then it is a passion shared. If all else fails the moderators whip us into line pretty quickly Cheers Aline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAZ Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 Can just picture Matty dragging out the whip and getting you in line too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caesar Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Aline, Yeah it is good to see some enthusiastic debate . It actually shows me how little I know after two years of breeding. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropheusQueen Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Can just picture Matty dragging out the whip and getting you in line too Don't you laugh Mr Waz, it may be rare but it does happen Cheers Aline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobaltcraig Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Hey Waz What answer would you expect from the vice president or the president of vice cheers craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobbin4 Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 I've been keeping an eye on this post and am amazed at some of the comments. Yellow, Hi Jason, makes a lot of sense in my opinion. But today i picked up my fish from Simon.What a nice bloke to deal with, fish being larger than stated [sometimes you go to look at a 4cm fish to fine they are 2cm - 3cm only] but his 1cm + are available if thats what you choose to take but he hooked out 30 and said take your pick and take a couple extra!!!!. And was i happy with the fish he asked as i left after a brief chat. More than happy was my reply. Good on you Simon and they are settled in fine. Cheers mate, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignose Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 I just read this post from the beginning and I'm exhausted Did learn abit being fairly new to the trade. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFishkeeper Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Ducksta/Andy Just a suggestion that may help next time you guys are shipping Demasoni or any other aggressive juvenile fish. At our last club auction here on the Gold Coast, one of the sellers, who is a very experienced hobbyist & breeder, brought along some bags of C afra to sell. In the bags with the fish were a number of thin strips of plastic which the buyer explained were there to help prevent the afra fighting and they seemed to work well, there were no losses in those bags and the seller advised he has used this method previously with good results. Cheers, Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Doug could you elaborate at all? I have sold and shipped dozens of demasoni at a range of sizes and these were my first losses, but I am keen to learn new things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFishkeeper Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Ducksta It looked like he had just cut up an old clear fish bag or similar into strips, about 1-2cm wide and a few cm long from memory. The theory apparently is that the strips confuse the fish when they try to get at each other, I'm not sure whether it is the physical presence of the strips or a visual distortion, but it seemed to work. Cheers, Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 I have seen yabbies shipped in boxes full of foam cubes and wood shaving, I guess it is the same principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 They ship fish from South East Asia the same way. I cant remember the species I think Loachs are one and black ghost knife I think they all have strips of plastic in the bags. So there you Ducky next time you send some small fish cut up some bags and put in with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midnightexpress Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 you learn new thing every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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