Can My Water Be That Bad!

[grungefreek]

Hi Guys,

Well im at a loss, and im getting tottaly and utterly frustrated ATM. OK heres the problem. Everyone says "WC's make your fish so much more happy and healthy" etc etc. Well everyones except mine!!!!!!!!!!!! WC's = dead fish in my tank!!! . Ok heres what i do. I fill up a plastic water barrel (cold water tap), heat the water to the same temp as the tank , let stand for 1 week minimum, add dechlorinator (chlorine and chloramine), change the water in the tank with this water. I was orginally doing 50% WC's as it is a planted tank so doing this much resets the tank for new ferts. Guess what happened, about 2 fish died the night after the WC, and is the same every time i did a WC. Ok so got annoyed with that, and then decided to go only 20% WC and see if that made a difference. Nope, still losing fish at a rate of about 2 the night after each WC. So the fish i lose are always tetras or raspboras, but the other fish also show signs of distress after the WC's. The platy's got red streaks thru their fins, and all the fish seem to be continually flicking (dose pimafix to help this), and eventually they get some form of disease and end up dieing. the only fish that i have no troubles with are the SAE's, Otto's and Bettas.

So can my change water be that bad that it just stresses my fish to the max!!!. we have 2 other tanks in the house. Both are overstocked, never get cleaned, under filtered, and never ever ever ever have had a WC. They get topped up sometimes when the water evaporates away. And most the fish in thier live for ages, well longer than mine do. Also, if my tank isnt touched for weeks on end, no cleaning, water added etc etc, the tank is fine. I went away for 3 weeks to NZ, leaving my bother in charge. All he did was feed the fish and that was it. When i got back the filter was barely running, water was below half way, and was dirty as. Guess how many fish died in those conditions????? None. So it must be something in the water that takes forever to go away.

I test my water regularily for nitrates, nitrites and ammonia. All read 0 except when i add nitrates for my plants. so the water isnt affecting my biofiltration. No deoderants or anything similar sprayed near the tank ever (unlike the other 2).

Ok tank stats

10gal, pH- 6.8 - 7, heavily planted, co2 injected, 570LPH HOB filter, 27 degrees, fish - neons, harlequin raspboras, platys, SAE's, Otto's, 1 male betta.

Change water

pH - well i think its ~8, i cant seem to match the colour of the test water to my hagen chart, the test turns a grey colour, not blue or green like the hagen test chart says it should (test kit is brand new). phaosphates- 0, nitrates- 0

Thanx for any help, cause ATm im really really annoyed with the hobby and am considering going planted only tanks, so sick of stupid fish.

[anchar]

Sorry that you are going through these frustrations..

When you say you let the water "stand" for a week, are you aerating it?

merjo

[Ducksta]

Forgive me for only speed reading the post. But what was in the 'water change barrel' before you started using it?

I also am finding your pH test results rather strange.

That would be the first things I looked at.

[Anita_ozfish]

Was exactly what I was thinking Ducksta. What was in the drum??

For years, I never used to aerate my water drum till I eventually got an airline out to it - never created any probs for me.

[Josh]

Isn't a Ph of 8 to high for the tetra's? I havent ever kept them but I thought they needed a more neutral water.

I would also like to know about the two thing's that were asedby ducksta and merjo.

[wetfish]

Thats what i think,

The new water being 8 Ph is killing them. Tetras and other community fish are sensative to Ph change. The Ph of the new water going in should match the water that is still in the tank. A friend of mine lost half his fish for the same reason. The only fish to survive where his guarmi

Do u add the dechlorinator at the beginning of the week??, or just before the water change ??

keep at it and u will get it sorted out

Wetfish

[katanaone]

also why not try and dose with water conditioner "dechlorinator (chlorine and chloramine)" before leaving it to stand for a week.

how often do you change your water?

neons, harlequin raspboras, platys, SAE's, Otto's, 1 male betta.

from what i remember (don't quote me) most of these fish do best around a neutral pH, which is what you said your tank was before a water change (if i understood correctly):

10gal, pH- 6.8 - 7

Change water

pH - well i think its ~8

from a pH of 7 to a pH of 8 in a short space of time is a big jump especially for small fragile fish.

hope that helps

ryan.

[Eddie Salita]

How about his for a checklist then based on replys so far:

1/ age your water for only 48 hours, with aeration(clean air). No need for dechlorinater really, if doing this. A week is plenty for all sorts of micro organisms to bloom. 48hrs isnt.

2/ Using hydrochloric, phosphoric, or peat, Get the new water ph7 before adding. If using acids, practice first. Especially HCL.

3/ Get a new or clean the water drum with a diluted solution of the above acids.

4/ check your hardness. It is generally easier to raise ph than to lower it. Carbonates are always working against you. Tap water can often be quite hard. in other words hard water picks up negative hydrogen ions easier than soft water.

IME harlequin rasboras are VERY vulnerable to ph shock, I have always found them a bit difficult to keep

Maybe try these things and tell us how you go?

NB: be REALLY careful when handling concentrated acids. Fumes as well as skin contact.

Cheers,

Jason

[BaZ]

age your water for only 48 hours, with aeration(clean air). No need for dechlorinater really, if doing this

This method will remove chlorine, but not chloromine. Even when using big barrels of aged water, it is my understanding that they still need to be treated with a dechlorinator.

[Eddie Salita]

Very true Baz. With 20% water change, his chloramines must be sky high to be killing fish. I have no scientific evidence, But I figure ammonia aspect is broken down by enzyme/bacterial action in the aquarium, as it is with us, leaving the chlorine to evaporate off(in the case of humans it dehydrates). Easy life is supposedly a natural way of doing this to chloramine. Its just not 'instant' like specific dechlorinating additives(takes a few hrs). As i said I have no 'scientific' evidence. Here no scientific evidence. Robbo: "yeah no evidence here."

If the chloramines are VERY high. A dechlorinator will release large amounts of ammonia from the chloramine. If the dechlorinator does not deal with this as well, you may get an ammonia spike. Catch 22 really.

Here is a bit more info on chloramines. I guess you could say Chloramines aint Chloramines. hehe. Depending on the type I have the opinion they are the lesser of the 3 evils. I just like to use as many natural processes I can. So If a chemical can remove it totally, go for it.

Cheers,

Jason

[mianos]

This article is probably the best I have on the subject:

The Ins and Outs of Dechlorination

(the production of ammonia by the result of the sodium thiosulphate reactions also depends on the pH)

[grungefreek]

Hi Guys thanx for the responses, heres some feedback.

When you say you let the water "stand" for a week, are you aerating it?

No i dont aerate it, didnt think it would make that much difference, maybe it does??

what was in the 'water change barrel' before you started using it?

Water, it is spring water barrel, a 20L one.

I also am finding your pH test results rather strange.

As am i (guessing u mean the change water). The hagen test kit is brand new (ph high range), and im pretty good at matching colours, just finished a chemistry degree where we did that kinda stuff alot, and yeah i cant seem to get a match on the chart. The test soln looks like a greyish blue not a greenish blue as indicated on the chart. Strange.

Do u add the dechlorinator at the beginning of the week??, or just before the water change ??

Well i tryed it both ways, didnt seem to make a difference, but generally its just before adding the water. Maybe i need to use a higher quality decholrinator. Our local shop only stocks "aquamaster water ager" whcih is what im forced to use.

The new water being 8 Ph is killing them

So u reckon its pH shock, i didnt think they were that sensitive to it. I had been told before a jump like this wouldnt affect them too much as i was only adding about 50% 8pH water, not like 100%.Maybe i will have to run some Co2 into my change water to lower its pH. or add acid as also said. U can get HCl at pool shops cant u?

With 20% water change, his chloramines must be sky high to be killing fish

Thats what i thought as well, they would have to be very high to kill fish. I thought maybe it was a little high which may have caused the fish to flick, but yeah should be very high to kill them.

A dechlorinator will release large amounts of ammonia from the chloramine

How large???? I test very very frequently for all these and have never got a reading, that could be luck as well. But also this is a high light planted tank, and with planted tanks, u never even bother cycling them, as the plants use the ammonia,nitrites,nitrates etc etc. My tank has lots and lots of fast growing stem plants (H. polysperma, H. difformis, Ambulia) and these guys suck nutrients like mad. I have to add 5ppm nitrates every 2-3 days to keep up, so surely these plants would absorb most the ammonia in the spike, unless it was very large, in which u reckon i would get a reading at some stage.

So its looking Like pH shock could be the main culprit. Ill have to try injecting some Co2 into the change water for a while to lower pH to around Neutral, my plants will also like the extra CO2 .Hmm cant really aerate while doing this as it will drive off CO2, but one night at bout 12bpm should lower pH enough, so can aerate the rest of the time before hand.

Thanks for the help guys. I was getting really frustrated with losing fish. Originally i wasnt going to have fish, cause really plants have more chemistry involved, but i got told i was an idiot for having a tank of only plants and no fish. Guess they add a little something to the tank.

Thanx Guys

Grunge

[Brett4Perth]

Hi Grunge,

Are you putting some fertilisers into your change water??

Could this be the problem?

Cheers

Brett

[CThompson]

Definitely keep using the water ager as has been said, as Chloramine is not taken out by letting it sit around or aerating it. You may go for years without issue, and then bang, all your fish will be dead… who’s to say how long this will take?

As has been said, what are you using to age your water in? And what was in the barrel/container before you used it.

If your barrel is clean, and covered with a lid, you can let is sit around for a week without issue. Nothing will grow in there that will be of issue to your fish. I do it all the time with my fish, have done so for years, so don’t be concerned about it sitting there for a week. I personally would put an air stone in there (or small box filter as it does the same as an air stone and in addition, will take dirt out of the water) so there is no temperature inversion in the barrel.

Ph adjust your water in the barrel prior to putting it in the tank. If I remember correctly, ammonia in a pH above 7 is poisonous and is not used as a fertiliser by the plants. Below 7 it is ammonium (is that backwards?), and is used by the plants as a fertiliser. This is the reason your tank’s pH should be around 6.8-7 for a planted tank, and the reason that plants found in the wild are in this pH range.

When a pH goes from what ever, say 7 to 7.1, that is ten times the previous pH. So just .1 is a big shift for a fish, particularly tetras and such with are not as hardy as cichlids.

Compliments on your post in regards to it being pretty well fleshed out with details.

No compliments on the other two tanks that receive only water changes when toping up from evaporation. Eventually this will be a big issue as the water’s parameters go so extreme it will be beyond the fish’s ability to adapt. If you do start doing water changes on these tanks, approach with great caution as the tank’s water will be highly polluted, and if you change too much the dramatic shift back towards a healthier tank, may be more than they can cope with due to the time span of the shift.

Craig

[grungefreek]

Hey again

Are you putting some fertilisers into your change water??

Could this be the problem?

No i dont add ferts to my change water. I wait one day after it , test, then add ferts. I add KNO3, Micros, Iron. All my other params are fine without adding anything.

If I remember correctly, ammonia in a pH above 7 is poisonous and is not used as a fertiliser by the plants. Below 7 it is ammonium (is that backwards?), and is used by the plants as a fertiliser.

U are right in saying at above pH it is ammonia, below 7, ammonium.ammonia/ammonium

But plants can use both ammonia and ammonium as ferts ammonia as ferts

So just .1 is a big shift for a fish,particularly tetras

Hmm well maybe they arent suited too well to planted tanks then. Cause even ones running Ph controllers for thier Co2 have fluctations of around 0.2pH between Co2 on and Co2 off. But u see them in them all the time, especially nano tanks. Apparently my fluctation was just too much for them. Il ladjust my water with Co2 and see how that goes.

Compliments on your post in regards to it being pretty well fleshed out with details.

Thanx, i like testing my water. I miss my chemistry classes already. Only 3 more biology classes and i get my double major and can get a job. Yay!!!

No compliments on the other two tanks that receive only water changes when toping up from evaporation

These arent my tanks, so i dont do anything to them. I tried, but if tehy lost a fish in the next couple of weeks i got the blame, so i dont touch them anymore. I clean thier filters every know and then, otherwise they wouldnt ever be working.

Thanx for the replys, hopefully now i know they are that sensitive, they wil lsurvive a bit longer. Geez lucky i didnt try Discus!!!!

[CThompson]

But plants can use both ammonia and ammonium as ferts ammonia as ferts

I followed your link and found the comment that stated plants use both ammonia and ammonium.

When my planted tank was running for three years I did a heck of a lot of research, before and during. And though I now have Tropheus in this tank, one piece of information I remember clearly was that at a pH of above 7 the ammonia was not accessible to plants, and that it changed from a fertiliser to something toxic.

I understand that the link you directed me to contradicted this, but I feel that the information on this was incorrect.

Other plant people please confirm or deny my understanding.

In regards to the pH swings in your tank. Yes, I was astounded at how much they varied in my tank, which also had an automated C02 injection, particularly between night and day. However, this does settle down a bit in a tank that has been established for…. 8+ months (in my case). In any case, as the pH shifts in the tank, it does so bit by bit, and climbs or falls as though going up or down a ladder. When there is a pH sift from a water change, it is like the fish are making the same movements, but in big jumps or falls, which is where an issue may come from.

In addition, you tank is not a large one, and these pH sifts will/may be even more extreme than in my old 400L planted tank.

The bigger you tank is the more stable it is. It is the plants themselves that cause these wild pH changes, and a planted tank having lots of plants, (and few fish), will have most dramatic changes, but they will still be a stepping change rather than a huge jump in a hit.

Don’t give up on what you are doing, search and eliminate what your issue is, as a well established planted tank is indeed a true thing of beauty, only made better by some fish glowing in the greenery

Don't forget, it could be you've just got a bad batch of fish with issues. I have found that tetras (cardinals I had) have a wasting type disease, which causes them to die one by one as time goes by. Perhaps your fish are already weakened, and a sudden big pH sift knocks them over the edge.

Get your pH in your water change container adjusted before addition to the tank and eliminate this as an issue.

A good water change cannot hurt, if it is indeed, a "good water" change.

Craig

[grungefreek]

I remember clearly was that at a pH of above 7 the ammonia was not accessible to plants, and that it changed from a fertiliser to something toxic.

Yep your right, did some reading of a more reputable source and found this is the case. Plants cant utilise ammonia, only ammonium, that wil learn me for not searching reputable sources strait up, 3 years of uni and i still try the easy way out.

Looking at charts of ammonia % versus pH and temp, i dont think ammonia would have been the problem, still only a small percentage is ammonia at the my tank params.

pH swing it is i would say.

Thanx again

[CThompson]

It doesn’t happen very often, but it is nice to be occasionally correct.

I agree, this should not be THE cause of your issues, but it may be one of a number that tips the balance.

It was just something that stood out to me, that I wanted clarified.

You sound like an intelligent fish keeper, but I don’t know the extent of your experience. It is more difficult, or should I say fish such as tetras and so on, are not as hardy as our cichlids, particularly Africans, not to mention the extra difficulties to keep a planted tank.

It is an information hobby, and the more information you have the greater your chances of success. Particularly with a planted tank, and a small one at that, the emphasis is more on the aquatist to get more information.

The platy's got red streaks thru their fins, and all the fish seem to be continually flicking (dose pimafix to help this), and eventually they get some form of disease and end up dieing.

This indicates strongly that there is something going wrong. And not necessarily have anything to do with your water changes. You seem to have an issue with your fish which may be completely unrelated to water changes or indeed this being a planted tank. Did you say how long this tank was set up for?

You should not lose half your water due to evaporation in three weeks, and indeed your filter should not be “barely running” (I assume through being dirty) in that length of time. This implies to me not enough knowledge has gone into its set-up.

If it is a 10 gal tank (dimensions please?), you don’t mention the numbers of fish, but by the sound of the number of species, you have a lot of fish in there. Generally speaking, a planted tank has its emphasis on the plants and the fish take a back seat, much the same way fish do in a reef tank. You may be overstocked.

so sick of stupid fish.

Fish are not stupid. They exist, and live and behave as nature has evolved them to do. If we put them in a situation where by they cannot live, then we need to sort out why that is. It is up to us to be smart enough to make up for our desire to put these creature into what amounts to a drop of water (when compared to what they exist in nature). I understand your frustrations, but work out what is going wrong, don’t give up.

The best planted book I read was called the Optimum Aquarium, I don’t know if it’s still available, but try to read it.

Craig

[grungefreek]

You sound like an intelligent fish keeper, but I don’t know the extent of your experience.

Been doing high light planteds for about a year now, so by no means a veteran plant man.

This indicates strongly that there is something going wrong. And not necessarily have anything to do with your water changes

Hmm bad fish stock has also played a bit of havoc in my tanks. We dont have the greatest fish shop round here. I now only buy fish on the day the shops order comes in. Any longer than that and real troubles hit. I also have no quarantine tank, which also doesnt help my case. But when u dont live in your own house, u can only have as many tanks as the owner (mum) allows. Hence why im restricted to a 10 gal. But after WC's i see the most change in my fishes behaviour.

Did you say how long this tank was set up for?

This one 6 months now.

You should not lose half your water due to evaporation in three weeks, and indeed your filter should not be “barely running” (I assume through being dirty) in that length of time. This implies to me not enough knowledge has gone into its set-up.

At the time when we were having 40 degree days, no lids on my tanks and 90 watts of CF lighting over the tank, i definately nearly lost 50% of my water. I lose a lot of water, my room is one big sauna (my family will back me up on that one). The filter is a resun HF2002- 570LPH. So its not the greatest filter in the world. They underestimate flow rates, they block easily, thats what ya get for paying $10. Sure i could go for a $50 AQ, but hey im a Uni student, i dont have Money, so cheaps the way i went, and cheap is what i got. Plus the filter really is only for water movement and a little mechanical filtration. I did think about the setup, i just went cheap with it. i like doing the maintenance.

If it is a 10 gal tank (dimensions please?), you don’t mention the numbers of fish, but by the sound of the number of species, you have a lot of fish in there

24 x 12 x 12 inches. My fish populations are no where near excessive for a high light planted tank. I had 2 otto's, 3 small Sae's, at one stage 5 platy's, most managed to jump out of my tank, so then got 7 neons and 5 harlequins, oh and my male betta. Now i dont regard that as an overstocked planted tank. Most people on planted forums have 3 times that amount in their tanks, and they do under filter etc etc cause thats what the plants are used for. Plus i have to add nitrates continually so im thinking its not an bio overload that is causing problems. Had i got continual high readings of nitrates,ammonia or Nitrites, then i would say overstocking, but never get any of these. The schooling fish had sufficient numbers to school with (neons and harlequins schooled together), and there was no aggression.

I have done my research into this tank. I have spent countless hours reading on the Planted tank forums, obviously didnt spend enough time researching myfish tho

Thanx for the replies and thoughts.

[Mazimbwe]

If you find you are still losing fish after you have stabalized the ph, I would seriously consider getting another barrel.

I think, like many others, poisoning was the first thing that came to mind...if you are absolutely sure of the barrel then I spose...just forget I said anything.

HTH

[Brett4Perth]

Ph swings seems to have been extensively discussed.

Agree with Maz, my first thought was the water barrel. Heard of several instances of colored plastic water containers poisening fish. Stick to white or "food" grade.

Hope you can sort it out. These are real frustrating problems.

Cheers

Brett

[grungefreek]

Well ill go buy another barrel for my water. I cant see why it would be it, but ill try getting another one i guess to see if that makes any difference. actually ill try the pH thing first, then the barrel to see wht is really causing the problem.

Thanx guys

[katanaone]

Our local shop only stocks "aquamaster water ager" whcih is what im forced to use.

aquamaster water conditioner is not that bad, it does the job, now that i've said that

why don't you see if you can order some aquaplus water conditioner (by nutrafin) or similar water conditioner in a 2L container so that you don't have to continually order it, then let the lfs know a few weeks before you run out so that the next order will be in on time. i'm sure they will help you out.

good luck mate

ryan.