shannon Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 After all your hard work will you be able to 100% gaurantee that you have identified species correctly and that they are 100% pure? I think what you're doing is great for the hobby I'd just hate for it all to be in vain. After all what's to stop someone selling their incorrectly labelled or crossed fish as what they were selling them as originally. Not every hobbyist will take notice of how you identify their fish. There must be a reason we got into this mess in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 I won't be able to guarantee anything at this stage. If I can get info on the teeth then I'm sure I can get to the bottom of sp. 44 and the lutea.... But if I can get as many pictures of what people have as sp. 44, brownae, Mpibia lutea (if people know that) and Christmas Fulu. Even if someone is keeping sp. 44 thick skin I really want to see photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davez104 Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I think there's a greater awareness now about the need to keep closely related species, and colour variants separate to maintain what we have here. It would have been very difficult, pre-internet, for a hobbyist to know that the "Christmas Fulu" colony he had pieced together from different sources was in fact made up of a mix of fish species. Not everybody had access to good books on the subject, but now anybody can jump on Google and find all the information and opinions they care to search for. You'll never stop the fringe hobbyists from throwing whatever in a tank and mixing the gene pool up, but hardcore hobbyists with an interest in Victorian cichlids will probably grab hold of any pure bloodlines and we might end up with decent strains of what is left here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 There must be a reason we got into this mess in the first place.I have it on good authority that 18 - 20 years ago a big import of Vic cichlids happened from Singapore. Most of the fish ended up in the Eastern States. They must have had the exporter's names, but here they were re-identified by a certain person as "Obligudens", phytophagus, and "flameback". All picturebook IDs and nice names for the fish, our "Crimson Tide" had the same treatment. *Edit* And at the time, the latest Cichlid News Magazine had a Christmas Fulu on the cover.I also have it on good authority that the myth that Female peacocks are genetically identical and it is the male that give the colour variant so it doesn't matter what female you breed from, is still being perpetuated. And that this applies to Vic species as well. We all know that this is WRONG! But the myth is out there.I hope hobbyists are more educated on the facts around the hybrid issue and that the importance of separation of location variants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 A bit of academic reading for those interested.http://www.eawag.ch/forschung/fishec/publikationen/pub_98/1998_ichthyological.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 http://www.cichlid.org/ACAMember/PDF/BB190.pdfThis is the American Cichlid Association newsletter relevant which distills the info from the above scientific paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted December 20, 2012 Author Share Posted December 20, 2012 http://www.cichlid.org/ACAMember/PDF/BB142.pdfHave a read of this. It helps to explain the hybrid mess. Selibrink collected from Lake Victoria. Unfortuanately he collected undescribed species. He mis identified them as known species then sold them to the hobby..... oops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E4G13M4N Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 That used to happen a lot with all sorts of fish, and still does...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 bristlenose anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted December 20, 2012 Author Share Posted December 20, 2012 I have found it really interesting going through the historical documents I can manage to download.Anyone happen to have back issues of Cichlid News? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davez104 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I've been following this thread on 3 forums lol, I'm intrigued to see what you can find out. One thing that I have come across that may interest you, Ray Owczarzak was doing some restoration work on a couple of the Vic species with, I think, the Shedd Aquarium in the states. He was saying that some of the species, (he referenced snail eaters), would begin to show changes in mouth/teeth structure after only a couple of generations in an aquarium environment unless the natural food could be replicated. This could be yet another hurdle you need to face or maybe just questions you need to ask yourself. Do we need to have our representatives of the species to be exact replicas of the wild specimens or, given the rarity of Vics here, would we be happy establishing recognised strains of these species that breed true but are perhaps not exact replicas?In a perfect world I know which way we'd all lean, but this world is far from perfect. Just something to think about, and whichever way things go it would need widespread cooperation from hobbyists, maybe even a register of some sort.Cheers,Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted December 21, 2012 Author Share Posted December 21, 2012 The teeth thing is an interesting one. Given that rift lake evolution has taken such a short period it isn't surprising that there is some plasticity in the genes.Having a narrow gene pool compounds the issue.The primary concern is, if real Christmas Fulus arrive they will eventually get hybridized into oblivion because everyone who sources some females from a different bloodline will likely not to get the correct species.Secondary if there are "pure" species going around, it is important to give them the correct name and make sure they are breeding true. I'm chasing up every avenue of identification, some might dead-end, but hopefully headway can be made. With the number if hybrids out there I'm not too hopeful of finding a pure species but optimism is helpful. But I feel it is worth spending some time to exhaust every avenue.In the mean time, it is a rewarding exercise because of all the learning about all sorts of things that takes place along the journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davez104 Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Most definitely mate, it's very worthwhile to pursue this as far as you can, if pure lines are here or likely to be present here in the future then they need to be preserved. This is probably more important with Victorian cichlids than most others given the state of their natural habitat. I just wonder, given the possibly variation that could now be present between a pure aquarium strain and the actual wild variant, if it wouldn't be worthwhile preserving some of the fish that we have here, if they can be proven to breed true, even if they are preserved as an "aquarium strain of X" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted December 22, 2012 Author Share Posted December 22, 2012 http://www.cichlid.org/ACAMember/PDF/BB156.pdfThe article Cichlidology in Australia made interesting reading. Is it irony that the next article is on the real Haplochromis sp. "Flameback". And around this time Australia got flamebacks too... Just not the real one... hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattrox Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 I have recieved Dr. Seehausens book. If you are interested in Vic Haps be quick because the $60 books are running out and with the limited availability......Anyway upon reading the sp. "carp" descriptions I am pretty sure the "Christmas Fulus" that have a bright yellow body with the red on the dorsal flank are either this species now called Mbipia lutea from Makobe Island. I "THINK" there are some pure colonies in QLD.The teeth theory is not quite a dead end. The structure of the teeth is variable, but their placement in the jaw is worth persuing.The head compared to body measurements will be helpful though. When I get a chance I'll post the info I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link2Hell Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Matt no need to increase Euan's self worth with praise about his Cichlidology in Australia articlethat was published June 1993 edition of BB even if there are some relevant points made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firthy13 Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 well i thought i would weigh in to this conversation.i have had no known experience with the so call xmas fulu, but here in newcastle this is what we call the sp.44. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazzman Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 my understanding was that sp44 (thickskin) does not have red along the body only in the tail region which is why one of it's common names is the red tailled hap. and that it was the Xmas fulu that had red along it's body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firthy13 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Im not too sure daz, vics really are not my thing. But I know alot of the old aquaholics breeders had these and were traded as sp.44. Hopefully mattrox will identify these. Im almost 100% sure these are neither and are a hybrid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manad Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Hey guys,I stumbled across your discussion while trying to work out what it is that I have. I got a colony of these recently off a guy that was selling up and switching to marine. He told me they were christmas fulu's but after digging around on the subject I now realise that it's not quite that simple. Lovely fish anyway so I'm not at all bothered but I'd love your opinion on what they might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tranced Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 great thread... i was contemplating packing in my setup and playing with some salt water lately. after reading this i will keep cracking on with the vics i think. got redheads and recently acquired some sp.44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristlenut Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 yes i know they are from lake malawi,but they seem to get thrown in with the vics.i recently acquired some astatotilapia calliptera in melbourne.does any know whether these are also a bit suspect in oz, or should they be fairly pure?.i was told they are great with synodontis cats, but a lot of the literature says thay only have small broods.also what hope have we got when some of the major wholesalers only use common names when they supply to the shops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tranced Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 i used to have some caliptera, they were gorgeous and looked like the pics in books etc... i never asked any experts though... but you might be able to get some reasonably pure ones i think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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