Christmas Fulus

[davez104]

Yeah, it's interesting seeing what's around. I had delusions of grabbing every "Christmas Fulu" I could find and trying to sort the wheat from the chaff and get some sort of accurate line going, but a change in circumstances meant I had to shut down all my tanks so nothing ever came of that. Shame, the Vics are really beautiful fish.

[mattrox]

There are only 2 non hybrid fish going around as Fulus brownae and sp. 44.

There are some quite nice sp. 44 "Fulus" too. I hope people with them can give them their proper name.

It would be magic if we can turn up a few colonies of brownae though.

Is anyone still in contact with Frenzy?

[cobaltcraig]

I know where frenzy Bownaes are if you want I can get the owner to contact you

Cheers

Craig

[mattrox]

That would be awesome. I followed his story on a different forum. I'm spewing that I didn't archive his photos for reference.

[mattrox]

This is a picture of the male I had. I had a trio but ended up losing them when a filter failed. I'm disappointed I don't still have them. Beautiful fish but was never sure exactly what it was.

Cheers,

Dave.

It's interesting that this fish had the horizontal markings that seem to be missing on the other fish.

On this sp. 44 there is the horizonal line extending from the eye to the gill plate. And I noticed it too on the other sp. 44 fish in other pics I posted. The brownae has a version of it too. It is interesting that your fish had it extend onto the body. Perhaps A. aeneocolor is in the mix? Could even be sp. 44 x aeneocolor.

A. aeneocolor

[mattrox]

I have had word back from Greg Steeves that the fish that I posted are consistent with brownae. He had not actually seen a specimen live but the old photos he has seen lead him to belive that they are likely to be brownae.

So this is a current live fish that is likely to be brownae.

I am awaiting an email from Dr. Ole Seehausen for final confirmation or otherwise.

Getting a photograph of Frenzy's old fish would be helpful too.

[Ged]

I have a photo of Matty's (another forum member) old fish that I will post up after I get home this evening.

I appreciate the hard work you are putting into this Vic Project.

Ged

[mattrox]

Thanks Ged.

My intention was not to embarrass anyone about hybrid fish. I hope no one here took it that way. I really annoyed someone on PCS.

I really only wanted to find "lost" fish. And with the recent influx of Vics new to the hobby, to avoid it happening again.

Hopefully people can dedicate tank space to species worth saving.

Actually I think the hybrid rufocaudalis (nigricans) should be curated as a reference (a library specimen like those really old books which are hopelessly out of date and inaccurate but you just can't throw out) for if they keep popping up in the future rather than culled or further dispersed.

[E4G13M4N]

Unfortunately when sifting through this type of thing it can not be helped to offend 1 or 2 along the way..

It is good what you are doing and hopefully some pures will be found

[bakes]

In New Zealand the only Victorian cichlid on the allowable import list are Astatotilapia Brownae , this is a photo of a NZ Brownae I got from www.fnzas.org.nz ,looks a bit different to what is shown on here,and as its their only allowable Victorian cichlid over there surely that's what they should look like?

[mattrox]

Except I don't know of anywhere that they exist to a great extent in the hobby.

Infact I have read "some people consider brownae and sp. 44 the same species" Only trouble is Ole Seehausen doesn't.

An American Expert in Vic heaps hasn't seen a live specimen!

Since not many people know what brownae look like, could sp. 44 be sent there under that name?

[bakes]

Hard to say, but if you took the view that their m.a.f / quarantine process imported the real deal , and as the only allowable Victorian cichlid as opposed to say here with multiple vic species than the chance of hybridisation would be minimal unless they had crossed with something from Malawi in a shared tank?

[mattrox]

Being allowed in and being actually present are 2 different things.....

[E4G13M4N]

Just because that is the only allowable Vic on their import list doesnt mean other variants or hybrids have not come in under that name.

Same goes for here, how do you think the elliotti's and some L numbers have turned up in the last few years, some have come through as something else as they look similar as youngens

[Ged]

Matt

Sorry for the delay getting these up. Thess are photos of Matty's fish. He no longer has them but it gives a good point of comparison.

Here are a few of my Astatotilapia brownae

[mattrox]

Awesome looking fish!

Makes it look like the suspected brownae from above is a pretty close match.

It isn't in breeding colours. The orange rather than red margins on the fins can be due to diet, individual difference, different blood line even photography. If it were hybrid then there will be morphological differences that I can't tell, and require an expert.

It does infect look like there are brownae still out there masquerading as Christmas Fulus. That is awesome news because of how endangered brownae are.

Anyone out there with similar fish? Please post pics.

[mattrox]

I was forwarded these two pics. The 1st is the breeding male the 2nd is a young male.

The guy who got the pics for me got them from a Christmas Fulu breeder!

[mattrox]

This hybrid is owned by someone who was told that it would grow up to look like the "textbook" Christmas Fulu.

[mattrox]

The owner of the fish above did some digging around and posted the question. Could this fish be Mpibia lutea?

The interesting thing is that Frenzy hypothesised that his fish were Haplochromis sp."carp". Guess what, Mpibia lutea is the new name for haplochromis sp."carp".

Here are a couple of pics.

SInce Frenzy's fish were ID-ed from photos only, it would be good to get a photo of that line of fish to compare.

If there are other photos of fulus or brownae out there keep them coming.

[mattrox]

sold my colony a while back but i do have some big ones in my fry tank around the 10cm mark i could take out and try to get some shots when displaying

Having gone through lots of pictures and given that the taxonomy of Victorian Haps were very much unknown at the time of import I am seriously beginning to entertain the idea that Mpibia lutea entered the country.

Here is something to consider.

At a quick glance they resemble sp. 44.

They don't look like Matty's brownae, but they resemble the picture from the NZ MAF. And they resemble one of the fish on page 1 which I hoiked from Google images.

http://www.haplochromis.org/minifiches2/797_FR.html

This page has Xystichromis sp."carp" as a synonym.

This lends lots of credence to their existence in Australia. Not too hard to re-name X. sp "carp" to Christmas Fulu given the word carp has such negative connotations.

If they were confused with brownae then the confusion the brownae and Xystichromis being the same animal.

Now I need to establish what "real" brownae are supposed to look like.

So this comes back to fishinf's fish. If you happen to capture a picture of your young ones colouring up and displaying that would help heaps. (And getting pics of Frenzy's fish)

This story isn't over by a long shot.

[mattrox]

Does anyone have Christmas Fulus that look like this one and breed true?

They really resemble sp. 44, but have different feeding habits. I'm trying to locate fish like this a lot closer to me than Brisbane.

[mattrox]

http://cichlid-forum...ies.php?id=2640

Mbipia lutea was known as Xystichromis sp. "carp". Seehausen & Bouton described the genus Mbipia with 2 species, Mbibia lutea and Mbibia mbipi in 1998. Mbipia lutea has yellow flanks and an orange colored dorsum. It inhabits the holes inside the sheltered rock reefs from 1 to 2 meters deep, eating insects larvae and predominantly blue green algae. It has a wide distribution throughout Lake Victoria but is thought to be more confined to rocky substrates. This species also exhibits a few differences at the various locations so crossing two populations of this species is not recommended. The strain we have in the hobby originates from Makobe Island in the Speke Gulf. It reaches a size of 14 cm when adult with a strong temperament so one should avoid keeping it in a tank less than 90 gallons for a colony. A 55 gallon tank is too small in my experience with this fish as it easily dominates the other fish in my tank.

So check out this video from the hobbyist in QLD that provided the above photo.

There is no doubt that this matches the temprament. (But sp. 44 is aggressive too)

[mattrox]

Ok so I can confirm that Mbipia lutea is supposed to be in Australia according to this VCS Cichlid Register.

Up until 2003 it was supposed to be plentiful in WA and in danger from cross/inbreeding in Vic. And in 2003 it looked like the species was 'lost'.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~cichlid/PDF/Register.pdf

Something to think about....

[davez104]

The plot thickens... I think you'd be surprised what is hiding away in some peoples fish rooms. How you would go about ascertaining for sure what they are, well, that's going to be the next major hassle. I'm enjoying what you're digging up mate, keep up the good work.

Dave.

[mattrox]

I'm thinking I'm going to have to collect specimens and photograph teeth.