Christmas Fulus

[E4G13M4N]

Biggest problem with the Vic lakes cichlids is pretty much they were imported under the wrong names or back in the day (20+ years ago) misidentified by the exporters or collectors which aided in them being mixed together,

over time the shops and wholesalers in general have kept the wrong ID going, similar to Jurapari heaps of places and wholesalers still sell them as that when they are S. leucosticta

Some of the Lake Vic cichlids shared similar fate as the Midas / Red Devils in Australia as well people had trouble ID them and some were sold under the wrong name.

Hopefully some pure ones are still out there ..

[mattrox]

Hopefully some pure ones are still out there ..

This is what I am hoping. I can fit in some species as I have room in some mbuna tanks. So I am going to seriously try to find out what is available (Haplochromines in general) and see how they grow out.

I think that there has been a new batch arrive in a recent import because I got some supposed P. nyererei Mwanza Gulf that have not previously been recorded. Tranced had a colony of Pundamilis sp. red head Zue Island with pics to prove and I have just found out some small Phytochromis sp. "salmon" hippo point are for sale in Sydney for $70 (thanks Krellious).

I think there are some "Christmas Fulus" swimming around that are a pure species. Those that haven't added other bloodlines to their colony have the greatest chance of having pure species. I just wonder how many different pure species were sold as "Christmas Fulus" because it has a cool sounding name.

[Ged]

I think I have Greg's email address if you don't get a response. Also try their Facebook page as there are quite a few people outside the club who see the posts.

In have been a member of Hills Country Cichlid Club for year and even contributed to their magazine on various occasions. A great club.

[mattrox]

That would be handy if I don't get a reply. I know he is very busy just looking at the dates of his speaking engagements.

[mattrox]

I have just had some interesting news. In my search for photos of what Christmas Fulus are out there in Australia I came across another suspected brownae cross, but these pictures turned up.

I'll be on my way to pick some of them up very shortly.

[mattrox]

They are not X. phytophagus but markings on individuals is consistent. I hope to get an ID.

It is frustrating that markedly different fish are being sold under the same name. lol but this is fun.

[mattrox]

I have been looking at the various different forms of Christmas fulu that people have been kind enough to send me.

With Andrew's information it and a picture I have been given, for a moment I will assume that this hybrid aquarium strain of Neochromis rufocaudalis but is being called Christmas Fulu. So what do we do?

I would say that if this fish breeds true, there is really no need to cull, just re-name it from Christmas Fulu to N. rufocaudalis "Aquarium Strain". There is no other fish like it likely to ever enter Australia and given the hybridisation that has occurred in Lake Victoria this may be the closest to the true species that we can get. It probably deserves to be conserved, and further hybridisation prevented. Is this a reasonable step? It seems a shame to cull a fish whose shape and form will likely never be seen in Australia again.

Would ACE deem it reasonable for people who can show that they have this fish (via a picture in the FS ad) to instead of advertising it as Christmas Fulu advertise it as an Aquarium Strain of N. rufocaudalis? This would prevent it from being unsuspectingly hybridised with sp. 44 or brownae type "Fulus". And this situation would be a damn sight better than just selling Christmas Fulus which most of us know, the great majority are of dubious origin.

I'll post some pics to Illustrate:

An Australian "Christmas Fulu"

The real thing.

Atleast that would separate it out of the "Fulu Mess" until things can be worked out. The sooner we stop calling them all Christmas Fulus the better.

Now consider this photo of a different Australian Christmas Fulu.

Completely different body form. More likely to be a brownae cross. It is insdisinguishable and could just be a poor sp. 44( but I wouldn't really expect the red on the flank for a sp.44.)

[aymenz]

Hi Guys,

I have come across this mad page relating to this issue: http://www.african-c...ke_Victoria.htm

Check it out and match it with what you currently have in order to determine whether you have a hybrid or not...

This is my Xmas Fulu:

[aymenz]

The last picture posted by Mattrox is not of Xmas Fulu based on the information from the site I have posted earlier, rather it is of either a

Neochromis rufocaudalis "Makobe Island" (male)

or

Neochromis rufocaudalis "Saa Nane" (male)

where the Saa Nane has more intense blue on the belly part....

The picture I have posted above is of an adult

Haplochromis (Xystichromis) sp

[mattrox]

The last picture posted by Mattrox is not of Xmas Fulu based on the information from the site I have posted earlier, rather it is of either a

Neochromis rufocaudalis "Makobe Island" (male)

or

Neochromis rufocaudalis "Saa Nane" (male)

where the Saa Nane has more intense blue on the belly part....

The picture I have posted above is of an adult

Haplochromis (Xystichromis) sp

The picture I posted is probably not a Neochomis rufocaudalis that has a collection point attached. It seems too elongated and there is (as established by Andrew) an aquarium hybrid strain of this species going around Europe that seems to have made it here and it is probably that.

Your photo unfortunately does not show a memeber of the genus Xystichromis.

http://www.africancichlids.net/gallery/gallery-victoria.php

The picture you have posted is likely to be of Astatotilapia sp. 44 origin I am afraid.

[mattrox]

Here is a real Christmas Fulu

Here is a of fish from the internet TRYING to be passed off as Christmas Fulus but is not the real deal.

From an Australian Website.

It is using a photo from here which the author even questions if it is a hybrid.

http://www.african-cichlid.com/XmasFulu.htm"]http://www.african-cichlid.com/XmasFulu.htm

Here are what people in Australia are posting as Christmas fulus.

Not one of these fish is the same. I think there is a strong case for the name Christmas Fulu to be completely dropped.......as it is only adding to the hybrid mess.... until such time as a real christmas fulu arrives. There has to be a real push to find out what the fish really is or don't breed it.

One of those fish above could possibly be a "dayglow"... unlikely, one could be a brownae. One is very likely to be a N. "rufocaudalis" aquarium strain.The last one is likely to be a low quality sp. 44 or hybrid......

[aymenz]

I am with you on this definitely as there are alot of confusion with Victorians here in AUS...

The picture I have posted looks very similar to the last one in the list of the photos you posted....

I did come across a website in which it mentioned something about the colors fading from deep red and yellow to bright red and and yellow when maturing, and that it is all based on the food you are feeding....

The picture of the xmas fulu that you posted under the real xmas fulu can be of the last one you posted in the list of so called xmas fulu companring the colors.

Will never get a hand on this, unless we start fresh with a new WC fish imported.

Regards,

Aymen

[mattrox]

There are similarities between it and the fish you suggested. But people who keep the real deal overseas say there are marked differences.

I think as you suggest it is best to start with clearly labeled and identifiable fish. But it also is worth looking through what is being sold to see why this mess happened. Possibly because the name is "sexy" and people wanting to get the real thing take the name at face value.

[cobaltcraig]

Hi Mattrox

We had a discussion at the nswcs on situations like this in the Hobby the Victorian we spoke about was the flame back ,Other species Red devils Ect and another one that came to mind is the fish we call Crimson Tide

We are getting to the stage where some fish like this may end up being called Flameback Australias as we believe that the flameback here is a cross of different locallitys and we now have some flamebacks turning up with localitys

So a trade name like flame back but most importatly the locality must be supplied to keep new species and blood lines seperate

issues we have is we all know most of our fish dont come through the front door , Also diet can change a fishes colouration and make it look different to the books ect

Mood of fish also in victorians can be a issue as they can colour up / down depending on whats going on in the tank I have had Burtoni in colours I have never seen on the internet/books anywhere for example

Finally the issue we have had with trade names has also caused issues the fish we call in Sydney Crimson tide everywhere else in Aust is Zebra Obliquidens There is a real Crimson tide that is a totally different fish not in aust yet

Sorry about spelling But you can see our club is talking about ways of fixing this and keeping new blood seperate from fish that are already here

Cheers

Craig

[mattrox]

Trade names are a real issue. A. latifasciata is called Crimson Tide here too. One from Lake Malawi is the "Red Top Cobalt Blue Zebra" which Bayfish call their Greshakei. Now if you go look up red top cobalt you get the almost idential M. mbenji (which has OB females, grehakei doesn't). I would have thought a professional outfit would try to get its names correct.

The P. nyereri that gets called flameback does need its own designation.

Yes, the colour variation in an individual poses a problem too. As does the dark morph of many of these species. I have seen "ID" threads of P. nyererei where the person was confused as to what fish they had, but it is a natural colour varyation.

I guess one task is to find out if there are pure A. brownae in peoples collections as well as pure sp. 44 thick skins. If not we might as well get the word out not to bother breeding. (Unless there is an aquarium strain of brownae worth saving as it is recognisable as different than other fish).

[krellious]

Will vics be the new feeders:(

[mattrox]

Will vics be the new feeders:(

I hope we can re-populate our tanks with proper versions.

The appearance of "salmon" hippo point, "red head" Zue Island (and maybe P. nyererei "Mwanza" from a new collection in 2007) amongst others in the last 12 to 18 months may provide us with vics that we are more educated about and can preserve better than the last lot. (Without usins Fowlers Vacola).

[mattrox]

I have dug this up from 2005

Thanks mate, That pic looks a lot like the ones I have. The guy I brought them off is sure that brownae and phytophagus are the same fish so that is why he calls them phytophagus. He showed me some literature that backed up his claim but most reading I can find say they are two different fish. I will keep looking into it, but for the time being I will call the first fish phytophagus and the second brownae.

Thanks again.

This was addressed at the time and it is easy to understand now why brownae are in the mix with the confusion.

From information I got through seperate sources, it seems to make sense that someone, when these fish first entered the country called them Christmas Fulu. When people got the internet and researched "Christmas Fulu" they found out it was Phytophagus..... When pictures became available with broadband speeds it became much clearer that brownae is not Phytophagus. Even back in 2005 people still worried about bandwidth theft, no with high speed no-one cares much anymore and pics go up hot-linked all the time.

[mattrox]

These two pictues were sent to me by someone in WA. This is what he was sold as Christmas Fulu. To me it looks like a pretty typical sp. 44 "thick skin". Those who have more experience with thick skins, what do you think.

[mattrox]

Oh, and I got an opinion from overseas that this fish is consistent with brownae. There is some hope yet. I am going to seek a cross reference with an expert in the field. This one seems worth pursuing.

[davez104]

I have dug this up from 2005

Thanks mate, That pic looks a lot like the ones I have. The guy I brought them off is sure that brownae and phytophagus are the same fish so that is why he calls them phytophagus. He showed me some literature that backed up his claim but most reading I can find say they are two different fish. I will keep looking into it, but for the time being I will call the first fish phytophagus and the second brownae.

Thanks again.

This was addressed at the time and it is easy to understand now why brownae are in the mix with the confusion.

From information I got through seperate sources, it seems to make sense that someone, when these fish first entered the country called them Christmas Fulu. When people got the internet and researched "Christmas Fulu" they found out it was Phytophagus..... When pictures became available with broadband speeds it became much clearer that brownae is not Phytophagus. Even back in 2005 people still worried about bandwidth theft, no with high speed no-one cares much anymore and pics go up hot-linked all the time.

This is a picture of the male I had. I had a trio but ended up losing them when a filter failed. I'm disappointed I don't still have them. Beautiful fish but was never sure exactly what it was.

Cheers,

Dave.

[mattrox]

Thanks Dave. All contributions are very much valued and appreciated.

That looks like a nyererei x sp. 44 the "smudged" bars on the tail wrist are consistent with Python Island nyererei. That's my best guess, but really I am a Lake Victoria newbie. Happy to get further opinions.

Unfortunately hobbyists have been hoodwinked.

[mattrox]

Oh, I have just updated Fantastic Fish's Facebook page status. If you are passionate about Lake Victoria cichlids and want to help stop hybrid cichlids circulating as something they are not, feel free to share the status and I'm happy to cop flack and any fall out.

[davez104]

No worries at all. It's interesting that this fish had the horizontal markings that seem to be missing on the other fish. You've got yourself one heck of a mess to unravel lol

Dave.

[mattrox]

I'm loving what is turning up. It just reinforces the need to use scientific names and not to guess at fish IDs.