Siphon to sump

[moldyform]

I would like to create a siphon which flows from tank to sump.

The reason is that i want to create a strong sucktion towards the base of the tank to siphon out more of the solid material which will be pushed by a pump at the pther end, towards that corner.

I need some advise on taking up the slack, ie the difference in water siphoned out compared to that pumped back in.

I thought about drilling but tank is fully set up and its 6x2x2 so id rather find another way.

Also overflow boxes, these dont let you creat a siphon in your tank either do they?

Any ingenious concoction will be looked at.

Cheers

[Colfish]

2 problems would need to be addressed

1] the syphon would over run the sump pump

you could put a tap in the pipe between the weir and the sump. to reduce the flow'

2] in the event of a power outage the syphon would continue to run. which would not be healthy for the fish, the floor or you.

have a small hole in the syphon pipe just below the upper water level. this will break the syphon.

cheers

[Josh]

Like Col said it would be a real drama if the power goes out and getting the flows matched up would be a constant problem.

I would use internals to move the solids around, and maybe an internal filter to pick them up or an external with a pick-up at the bottom of the tank

Josh

[electricyellowz]

Josh's idea sounds good. You could aim the internals at the inlet pipe of a canister filter and all the solid substances would get sucked up the canister. That would be the way to go imo.

[BaZ]

Yep syphons are bad m'kay?

I have recently emptied my big display tank, but when it was running I had no issues with solid materials in my tank. I found that by angling the return pipe the right way and using a fairly strong pump from the sump, it created enough pressure to keep any solids suspended in the water until they went over the weir and down to the filter.

The tank was always crystal clear, and I think I vacuumed the sand once in the 4 years the tank was running.

[fishdance]

What you want to do is quite easy. If you cant drill your tank then you can use an overflow box. Either a bought overflow or a DIY version is fine but this will involve a sump as you have mentioned.

The overflow box IS a siphon and if you want to suck off the bottom then just extend the pipe.

Stopping the pump or having a power outage will not mean your siphon empties the tank if you have an overflow box. You can also make an overflow just out of pipe too.

[moldyform]

This sound good Fishdance, but carnt quiet follow it . Please explaine again as it looks to be a goodd design. I like the idea of using a pipe as the over flow box instead of an actual box.

No matter what system i run i will have a sump and if possible an intake down lower in tank that is siphoning.

To take up the difference between the siphon out and the sump return pump i belive there is only two options, Drilled holes or a over flow box/tube.

Any more ideas?

Cheers

[huzzy]

As Baz said....a siphon will only end in tears.

Google "overflow box" for fishdance's solution, you will see what he means.

Another option would be a manufactured weir that has 2 outer walls, with holes from about halfway down the outer skin. Its hard to explain, however the inner wall acts just like a weir with the water flowing over the top at the desired height (near the top of the tank), however the actual water comes from below the surface. The only downside is you dont get the skimming effect of gunk being removed from the surface.

l

l l <-- top of weir and inside layer of weir

l l

l l

l l

_l <-- water flows in through the bottom, goes up and over the top of the weir.

[fishdance]

This sound good Fishdance, but carnt quiet follow it . Please explaine again as it looks to be a goodd design. I like the idea of using a pipe as the over flow box instead of an actual box.

Here is a link to something similar on another forum (is this allowed?) I dont use this exact design but basics are similar. As I mentioned, if you want to pick up from the bottom just extend the internal pipe/pickup.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=15733

No matter what system i run i will have a sump and if possible an intake down lower in tank that is siphoning.

To take up the difference between the siphon out and the sump return pump i belive there is only two options, Drilled holes or a over flow box/tube.

Any more ideas?

Cheers

Are you trying to work out ways to pick up off bottom or ways to get to your sump? If you only want to pick up off the bottom you could also consider an Over Head Filter or internal Side Drop with bottom pickup (as a Wet/Dry filter). There is also the humble internal power filter if you dont have side or back wall clearance. Or a powerhead to stir and keep debris into the water column. I once used a Hang Off Back filter INSIDE my tank. I noticed the motor was sealed and that powerheads are essentially the same thing and they go underwater so I made up a false wall inside the tank to hang it on and despite being underwater, away it went..... looked pretty wierd though.

If you simply want to get water to your sump then there are several variations of both of the ways you have listed.

[greencardigan]

As Baz said....a siphon will only end in tears.

Only if it's not set up correctly.

I know many people who use a syphon to get water to the sump. They syphon is only part of the system and is usually used in combination with a weir or overflow box setup.

I use one myself too. Best thing I ever did.

[moldyform]

Ok I submit.

Is it possible to drill tank in situ?

[huzzy]

tank in situ?

what do you mean?

[moldyform]

With out over hauling the 550 lts of water and fish and rock ect.

In other words drill tank on stand with out up ending it.

[huzzy]

With out over hauling the 550 lts of water and fish and rock ect.

In other words drill tank on stand with out up ending it.

You need to empty the tank if you are going to drill it.

You need to constantly wet the drillbit/hole while you are drilling, so if you dont mind wet floors then you could try it.

[moldyform]

yar wetting the floor isnt an issue as then usually get a good drenching every time i feed fish.

Ill research it now to see if possible. If not ill invent a method so that it is.

Such as a 300 mw Green laser. 11

[fishdance]

It is easy to drill a tank in situ if you put the hole on the side near the top. You do have to drop the water level

to a little below the proposed hole of course! I have a drill stand made with glass suckers on the base so sideways drilling and spray lubricant works but nowadays I can drill steadily freehand. Talk to some tank builders.

[moldyform]

Yes fish dance it looks like it will work.

From what ive read it can easly be done.

Now to find a D. Bit.

Cheers

[BaZ]

I'm curious to learn how some of you seem to have syphons as part of your filtration system. I'm always willing to learn new tricks and have an open mind about this.

However, my understanding of a syphon is that it won't restart automatically after a blackout. Also, do you have to match your pump speed to the speed of the syphon to avoid the sump either running dry or overflowing?

A gravity-fed sump certainly seems safer in my opinion.

[greencardigan]

I'm curious to learn how some of you seem to have syphons as part of your filtration system. I'm always willing to learn new tricks and have an open mind about this.

However, my understanding of a syphon is that it won't restart automatically after a blackout. Also, do you have to match your pump speed to the speed of the syphon to avoid the sump either running dry or overflowing?

A gravity-fed sump certainly seems safer in my opinion.

No, you dont have to match the pump to the syphon.

Set the syphon to take say 95% of the exiting water. The other 5% takes the existing route to the sump. Weir, overflow box etc.

For blackouts, the syphon will stop and the weir or overflow box has to be able to take 100% of the flow.

[huzzy]

No, you dont have to match the pump to the syphon.

Set the syphon to take say 95% of the exiting water. The other 5% takes the existing route to the sump. Weir, overflow box etc.

For blackouts, the syphon will stop and the weir or overflow box has to be able to take 100% of the flow.

Apart from the ability to grab water from a lower level, what is the advantage?

And as mentioned, what happens when the power goes out?

and what happens when the power comes back on?

[fishdance]

I think there is some misunderstanding happening. An overflow box is a glorified waterbridge. It becomes a siphon because one end/side is filling while the other is draining down the standpipe but it will stop siphoning & draining when the pump stops because the water levels even out. The overflow box is nothing new here right? Similar to a drilled tank in effect.

The pipe overflow is exactly the same as an overflow box only it uses a single pipe as both the water bridge and standpipe. I could post some diagrams but if you google, there are lots of examples and explanations. (Some misguided though!).

Hope this clears any confusion.

[BaZ]

Yes, I'm aware of overflow boxes and how they work, but aren't we talking about something different in this thread?

I got the impression we were discussing a true syphon which picked up near the bottom of the tank.

Is it possible to set an overflow box up so that it picks up from the bottom of the tank? I thought they still relied on the water flowing over the top of the box (hence the name 'overflow') and didn't think they had the same kind of pulling/lifting power of a syphon.

Anyway if i've got the wrong idea it won't be the first time, or the last. As long as whatever you guys are doing works for you

[moldyform]

greencardigan is the engine-ear so i will leave the explaination to him.

"It is a simple question".

And yes Baz you are right, this thread is about creating a siphon which will activly pick up fish Excrement from near bottom of tank at a greater force then obviously a gravity fed system, or even my current 1200 canister filter and deliver it to sump.

Cheers

[greencardigan]

Apart from the ability to grab water from a lower level, what is the advantage?

Quieter. That's the main reason I run mine.

And as mentioned, what happens when the power goes out?

and what happens when the power comes back on?

Power off:

The syphon continues to syphon until air gets in and breaks the syphon. Air will get in through a small hole in the syphon pipe just below the normal water level. Or if the suction end is just below the surface, it will obviously stop when it reaches that.

Power on:

The syphon wont start, and all the outflow must be taken by your usual setup. restart the syphon when you're ready.

Maybe have a read here. http://www.masa.asn.au/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=168430

[moldyform]

Now, for Recommended whole size to drill.

Things that ill be taking into account for example are, It will have to take 100% of the flow and be sufficient enough to skim surface adequetly.

I was looking at a 60mm bit, but thought it may be better to go with a 80mm bit. Is it possible to restrict the whole with the type of bulk head you insert?

Any suggestions?

Cheers