Camo Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Hey Well i need help as i have no idea how this happened and would not like it to happen later on down the track. I had about 10 Ps saulosi and 5 E.Blues in a 4ft tank. The saulosi were 4cm and the blues about 12cm so it was not overstocked IMO. When the tank was cycled for over a month and all was fine i got my fish and chucked them in and they lived happily for over 2 weeks and then today i go into the fish room and i see fish laying on the bottom dead so i rush around grabbing test kits and when i tested the nitrates it was at 80ppm and everything else was AOK. Now i teseted this only the other day so what could of made this have this spike so quick i am stumped. I have gravel, 2 terracotta pots and some pvc pipeing. Help please i have no idea what happened. Just lucky it was the saulosi and not my maingano or demasoni. Cheers Cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camo Posted January 29, 2006 Author Share Posted January 29, 2006 Hey Well they are now all dead so yeah this is the thing that makes you want to get out of the hobby. Cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzzy Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Hey Well they are now all dead so yeah this is the thing that makes you want to get out of the hobby. Cameron ← Do you do any water changes between you saw the first dead fish and now? What sort of filtration do you have? how long would the dead fish have been in the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camo Posted January 29, 2006 Author Share Posted January 29, 2006 Hey Yes waterchange was done and the filter is a 2000L/PH internal and the dead fish was probably in there for 5 minutes. Cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noyd Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 80ppm or 8.0ppm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Nitrate right, not nitrite? nitrate usually makes fish susceptable to other illnesses/infections, it usually doens't kill outright like ammonia or nitrite. If it is nitrate yeah 80ppm is high but I've seen tanks with readings in the hundreds without fatalities, sure they didn't look happy but they weren't close to death either! Could something else be going on? Two minutes between your posts is awfully quick deaths, someone hasn't been aerosol spraying? What has changed in the last few hours? Are the pots new? What's the tank temp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Nitrate at 80ppm is unlikely to kill your fish. Probably have no affect at all. 80ppm nitrite would have killed your fish probably before it even got that high. I'm wondering about pH? Anyway dont give up we all learn by our mistakes. Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noyd Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 80ppm nitrite!!! damn my kit only supports up to 8.0ppm maybe time for a new kit if the tank is a fairly new set up, i would of been checking the water chemistry every 2-3 days and of course prime would of been my best friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 I am guessing that the tank wasnt cycled properly. How was it cycled? I doubt that the bacteria levels wernte high enough to support the bio-load created when you added 15 fish all at once. Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 If that was the case Josh there would have been readings of ammonia and nitrite. As it stands, it appears there was only a massive influx in nitrate? This suggests to me a massive rise in ammonia (and later nitrite) in the hours leading up to it, but that the filters decommissioned it quick smart. A few things I would look for, did you do a water change over the 48 hours prior? Have you ever tested your tap-water for nitrate? (You would probably be surprised how often it has higher levels than tank water) Was there any fish that died earlier and maybe got stuck behind something where they had a day or 2 to decay, they will pollute the water at an alarming rate. Did you feed them any new kind of food lately that might pollute the water much worse? Something must have happened to get that level up so high. However I agree with the others that said high levels of nitrate should not be fatal, so you might need to look deeper. Did you test the other levels? pH shock is a valid theory, if there is some organic waste in the tank decaying, pH may have crashed dramatically in a few hours, even if your filters knocked off the ammonia/nitrite quickly as they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTR73 Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 I think there are a number of things that could have went wrong but firstly, a number of questions: How was the tank cycled exactly? Did you use some Goldfish to cycle or did you fishless cycle? What is the actual size of your tank? (a 4ft can be anywhere between 150L to 342L depending on width and height). How physically big is your internal canister? And did you have any biological media set up in it? The fact you introduced your fish into a cycled tank at 4 weeks, then 2 weeks later there's disaster, says to me the sudden increase of a load of approx 40" of fish obviously had a an effect on the biological stability of your tank. So a possible senario is your tank at 4weeks was quite capable of a bio load of, let's say 20" of fish, then when you introduced your saulosi and E. Blues your tank had to adjust for the extra load but ammonia spiked in the process after two weeks. Or if you use the 4L per inch of fish rule like I do, and your tank is a "standard" 4ft, you've actually got ~200L which can comfortably handle a load of ~35" of fish with basic filtration (I estimate you had about 40" of fish). Most internal canisters are great for mechanical filtration, unless you have them set up with bio media also, but simple wool or a foam insert doesn't harbour the extra bacterial colonies you might need - especially cleaning them once a week. And even with the 2000L/hr rate, slower rate is generally better for biological filtration. So perhaps you were on the limit as far as room and bio load goes anyway - but we need to know full dimensions of your tank and your filter setup. When setting up a new tank I always cycle over 4 weeks like yourself, but I introduce the fish slowly over a few weeks, throw in a canister of Zeolite to counter any possible ammonia spikes and do weekly water changes in the month after introduction of the first new fish. It's always tempting to throw in all your fish in one hit but you've got to be certain your tank is capable to that bioload. Have a good read here on water quality: Water aspects for Aquaria But don't lose heart - most of us have been there. Once you have fishkeeping figured out, its all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tam Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 nitrate readings is just an indication to let you know when its about time to change water... it is not really lethal at that 80ppm level, however it is GOOD that a water change should be done soon enough. could be something else... Tam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camo Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Hey OK alot of reading then. Ok it was 80ppm and it was nitrate. The tank was cycled for over a month and it had 6 biggish mollies in it. I dont like goldfish. There was no ammonia present or nitrite. The ph was at a stable 8.2 all the time. Yes i was monitoring the tank every 3 or so days and nothing. Ducksta there was no dead fish hiding to decay mate i checked for that. The tank is approx 220L GTR73. The filter size is well huge at least 40cm high and i dont know probably 20cm circumference. It has bio balls in it and the filter media. Ducksta i have never tested my tap water maybe i should. No i had not done a water change within 48 hours before this happened. I think that is everyones questions answered. I dropped the tank today filled it back up and everything is all good. Got some mollies in it and they are goin fine. Dont know what happened to it, it just yeah went like it over night. Cheers Cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 6 mollies =/ 10 4cm saulosi + 5 12cm blues within 3 days you could have had a mini-cycle (which would have happened with that bioload change) which could have pushed your fish too far & dissappeared by the time you tested. The reason goldfish are used is they are big, chunky & messy like cichlids, therefore the bioload is similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I think you're right Ash. Still not enough info. For example, you say Camo; "The filter size is well huge at least 40cm high and i dont know probably 20cm circumference. It has bio balls in it and the filter media" This implies a canister. Canister and bio-balls are not the best together as you will limit your tank's Life Buffer. This could have also added to your issue. Next time, purchase a Seachem ammonia alert, this will give you a permanent ammonia display. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTR73 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 6 mollies =/ 10 4cm saulosi + 5 12cm blues within 3 days you could have had a mini-cycle (which would have happened with that bioload change) which could have pushed your fish too far & dissappeared by the time you tested. The reason goldfish are used is they are big, chunky & messy like cichlids, therefore the bioload is similar. ← Yep, what I was trying say. Perhaps I'm too long winded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzzy Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 CTomphson: Does the amonia alerts really work? I've always had my doubt....however every other sechem product is A1. Camo: for your filter: how about a brand/model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camo Posted January 31, 2006 Author Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hey As it says up the top it is an "internal filter" not a cannister filter. Cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 CTomphson: Does the amonia alerts really work? I've always had my doubt....however every other sechem product is A1. Camo: for your filter: how about a brand/model? ← yes they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Print media can be misleading, but hey Cam, you really sound like you have attitude in what you wrote….. Your replies have not been easy to follow, especially for someone who has little time to respond such as myself. You need to make yourself more clearly understood, and give more full details such as the brand and model of filter so people can get a better handle on the whole situation, from the start in your first posting. You are after all asking for our help. Hey, As it says up the top it is an "internal filter" not a canister filter. I didn’t see that when I first read through and only found it after a few minutes of searching. You may think your self clear, but from our end of the computer you are not. However, even if I did see it initially, my comment still applies. Bio-balls are NOT best suited to submerged use (which they are in either a canister or a filter that is internal in the tank, and you would have lowered your tanks Life Buffer Capacity by their use. They will not have caused your fish deaths, though you should still choose a different bio-media. Your problem has been caused by either something you have done, or something you should have done. Ash is probably correct in his guess. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobaltcraig Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Hi Cam I use one the Seachem Amonia alerts on my display tank and it saved my tank from crashing so I am a big fan of them Cheers Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camo Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 Hey Ok thanks all for the replys. Cheers Cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzzy Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 Hey As it says up the top it is an "internal filter" not a cannister filter. Cameron ← i asked what the model/brand was....IE: emperor 400, ehiem 2213 etc etc. i already know it is an internal, what we dont know is the brand and model and hence its capabilities. As Craig just said, your replies are hard to follow with poor gramma, spelling and ofter laced with attitude....you will get no more replies or answers from me. good luck with your spikes and new fishroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 I'd bet it's one of these... Click me They come with bioballs inside with mechanical pads wrapped around them. They do an OK mechanical job but have SFA media to flow ratio so biologically are pretty weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobbin4 Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Spot on, we should say no more. :lol4:Not happy !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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