trofius Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Hi all, Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this. My leptosoma malasa are slowly disapearing! the two large male are fine but the smaller of the group mainly females are not eating real well and they are wasting they have the big head/eyes thing with skinny bodies, they try to eat but spit the food most of them eat it fine, at the moment one is dyeing about evey 2 weeks, 8 left, help please Is this a disease that can effect leptos, or should i change food, any recomendations.. currently they are being fed wardleys premium cichlid flake, and some osi spirilina flake. the set up if it matters is a 6x18x18, 50l canister filter, sand and rocks, 8x leptos, 7x 5cm foai magara, 2x 5cm spilopterous, 3x bristlenoses, 2x 4cm flavipinnis... Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvil Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Hi trofius, I had the same problem with my ventralis and cyps, its called "wasting desease", as far as i know there is no known cure, i have tried all sorts of medecines with no results, the only things that worked for me was to take all the infected fish out of the tank, as if you leave them in there it will infect other cyps and featherfins, i also put an UV sterilizer ,this solutin was put to me by C. Thompson and has worked for me. Before i separated my infected fish i lost 3 ventralis and 2 cyps in a period of two or three months Out of 5 cyps that were infected only 2 survived in onother tank. There are others out there with a lot more experience than me on this subject, maybe they can shed some light on this desease as featherfins and cyps are becoming so popular now Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 I agree with Alvil - it's classic "wasting disease". There are few hard facts that are known about this - and there's no satisfactory cure. Get the affected fish out of the tank ASAP as they will be shedding the causative agent (thought to be a protozoan) into the water which, if in large enough numbers, will affect the other fish - in particular the remaining leptos and the magara are at risk. Check the apparently healthy leptos - if they look even slightly hollw in the belly despite appearing otherwise well, remove them too! Put them into a hospital tank, give them TLC (hiding spots, good, cycled filtration) and feed them on something very tempting such as brine shrimp. Feed sparingly though - if they are not eating the food will rot in the tank causing further stress from bad water conditions. If there is uneaten food in the hospital tank, siphon it out, even if it means doing it twice a day. You could possibly try treating with Kanaplex (but it's just about impossible to get as it's no longer imported) or Metronidazole (Octazin, Flagyl). They might work but don't get your hopes up, there hasn't been a lot of proof that they help, and the fish can get better by themselves. The fish in the hospital tank have a poor chance of survival - but if you put some effort into looking after them you might save half of them. I had a similar experience with Malasa leptos - we saved 50% but they lost all colour and would not breed for over 12 months. They have returned to full colour and breeding now, they look gorgeous. So if you save them, be patient. It's worth giving them the benefit of the doubt if they've managed to pull through such a nasty disease. Check your water conditions in your tank - particularly nitrate.....Tangs don't like nitrate above 40ppm - this can be a trigger for the disease, and preferably the nitrates should be below 20 ppm. Main thing at the moment is to protect the unaffected fish - so have a careful look at all the fish and pull out anything that looks even slightly wasted. Hope this helps, Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trofius Posted February 3, 2004 Author Share Posted February 3, 2004 thanks all will have to get another tank, damm lol, have some metro at home fo the Ts. do you think its worth trying? luckily none of the magara look affected, will have to get a nitirte test only got ammonia and nitrate, but they are allways 0.00, I check every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 I’ll just check that this post wasn’t mine…Boy, this sounds like a post I could have written. You have described the classic symptoms of “wasting disease”, you will find if you look at the gill area, you will be able to see the red colour of the gills through the gill plates. This symptom can show, while the fish is still otherwise looking good. I found it didn’t help to remove fish showing obvious signs of problems, such as spitting food, as one more would ALWAYS show symptoms after it. I was killing fish after fish after fish (they were going to die anyway), hoping to remove the problem this way. It didn’t work. If any come done with a mouthful, which they can do if not too far into the disease cycle, make sure you strip the young at around day....15, well before they spit. Raise the young in a separate tank, and they will be unaffected. It is passed I belive though water, one tank in a system to another tank in the same system. Watch out for cross contamination with your affected tank and ones not. I have become an expert at stripping leptosomas. UV does help, it doesn’t necessarily help all the time, but it is holding things at bay for me at the moment. At one stage I thought it had cured my problem, I removed my UV, only to have the issue come back a few months later. I have had a UV back on the tank for four months now, and though I am not losing adults, their breeding is affected (Malasa), and it is still death on young. If you’re lucky maybe it will be effective for you. This disease seems to show varying different symptoms. What you described is how my problems started some three years ago, and I still have it, though at times I’ve had a fish still eating die on me. It seems to be absolute murder on young fish. You will not be able to grow up young leptosomas in your affected tank. Some varieties of leptosomas are less affected by this problem. Malasa are hit badly, but Mpmbwe adults seem to get by with the loss of an occasional female. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy Wombat Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Geeze it must break your heart to see you fish die in such a way - and to feel so helpless would be soooo frustrating! Given the value of these fish - it may be worth sending one off to a pathology lab to see if they can id the protozoans causing this problem. I would also like to know if gill flukes are present as the symptom of red gills being seen through the gill plate of the fish can be a sign of gill flukes. I would guess that Flagyl would be a good start. If gill flukes were present - praziquantel would be the go... Im just about to purchase my first lot of cyps. Im getting some Cyprichromis leptosoma "Untinta Bay". Hope to hell that i dont have any problems with this. Cheers guys ww Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phenomena Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Hi, Does anyone know where to send the affected fish for diagnosis? Has anyone done it before? What are the fees? I must say, it's very unfortunate that there isn't any certain cure and the fact that we have very limited access to drugs here. Thanks DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 There's a vet in Alexandria who specializes in birds and exotic animals - he also dabbles in fish, and has been working with a pathologist who has experience with fish. If you want a fish to be sent off it can't be one that's already dead, even if it's freshly dead as they decompose so fast they quickly become useless for the pathologist. It has to be a "moribund" (nearly dead) fish. Would be quite expensive - I would think $150 plus. I know our samples just for having a biopsy looked at are $100 and all of that goes to the pathologist. Cheers, Jess. BTW - make sure it's a nitRATE test you get, not a nitRITE test. Ammonia and nitrite will be zero if your filter is working fine, which is the case for most people. It's nitrate that builds up in the tank and is removed partially with water changes. Unless you have an active nitrate removing system on your tank of some kind, you will not have zero nitrates. Nitrate tests tend to be fiddly things with at least 2 reagents that you have to put in the test and you usually have to wait 5-10 min for a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy Wombat Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 A good place to start may be the fish health section of your state government deparment of fishieries. Sometimes they will do cheap pathology reports for people. They certaionly do them for fish farmers. Worth a shot Griffin - do you think histopathology or the gill and internal organs would be the best option here? You may need to get some "fixative" (formalin) from a vet if you are going to send a sample off though. Let me know how you go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trofius Posted February 4, 2004 Author Share Posted February 4, 2004 Hi all thanks again it is a shame that this is such a vauge disease, pathologfy may be an option but I am in Rockhampton and well I think the vet will be as good as i can find, unless I can swing some lab time at uni, currently have the effected fishes in water with some metro, did a full clean out awhile ago due to my regani alll dying within a week, then all was fine for a month then well lepto deaths, the tank was treated with tetracycline before the cleanout, Am also feeding the remaining fish some flake soaked in metro as well.. Its just dammm annoying not being able to fix this, the leptos that are all effected are small 5cm females the larger 8cm males are fine, and eat like pigs! mmm it might be worth just completely stripping the tank and destroying the inmates, although it would be a very sad day indeed. bye bye to a few hundred dollars in fish! will see how things progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chorrylan Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 hi, so where do I sign up for the next Wasters Anonymous meeting? My jumbo mpimbwe have had an ongoing struggle with wasting disease. I think it's compounded by the fact they're quite boisterous and the stress of being hassled by other males can trigger the symptoms. I've tried octozin, worm medicine etc etc with no lasting effect. haven't tried a UV filter yet (still saving up for one). I've never had a quarantined fish survive so have resigned myself to the fact I need to fix the whole colony in-situ somehow. I'm getting promising results with sterazin (following up on the gill inflammation) at the moment but once upon a time I had promising results with doses of worm medicine that didn't last. If this fails I'll probably be begging my local vet for some flagyl or trying a UV filter. So far my malasa and kibishi colonies have shown no sign of symptoms, it's just the mpimbwe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donbennie Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 not sure if this is happending to my male lithobate which is not eating anything at the moment, probably for a week, but hes acting fine so far, if i didnt notice his not eating at meal times, i wouldnt know anything wrong with him, hes still chasing all teh females and swimming around, would this be the same disease??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bit Racer Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 It usually starts off when they refuse to eat, they may take food mouth it and then spit it out. As the disease progresses the fish look list-less and won't even be interested in any food. At this stage their bellies will appear to be sunken. Eventually the fish will die (after a couple of months or earlier depending on the water conditions/temperature). I have had one discus with this condition that I treated with flagyl/metronidazole with elevated temperatures and she did come good, although she is slightly stunted but healthy and the problem has never returned. I agree, it's a nasty disease and it seems to affect some fish and not other types in the tank. Perhaps some fish are more susceptible to it than other types. I'm no expert, but I think treatment is difficult because the fish isn't eating and therefore you can't get the medication down to where it's needed. Has anyone tried making a diy food with some finely crushed octozin tablets to treat current tank mates that are eating ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willy Wombat Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 It sounds just like the reverse of Malawi bloat Perhaps we should term it 'Tanganyika waste' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 I was wondering if someone on the NSW Cichlid Society committee could mention at the next committee meeting the possibility of getting funds to research this disease. It seems like a lot of people have many different theories as to how this disease should be treated. But no definite answers. Many of us have fish with these same symtoms meantioned in this post. I have 2 leptosoma with red gills, stunted growth and spit out all the food that they try to eat. What I am trying to get at is, why don't we use some society funds to send some of our affected fish to a pathology lab to finally figure out what this disease is? I know that the cost is above most of our heads to do it individually but I am willing to contribute a fish with the symtoms if the society is willing to put the money up for the work. Isn't this one of the reasons why the society exists? (not just to run the mini auctions/raffles that we all love) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serial-Cichlid Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Rodney That is not a bad idea. I would donate some fish as well but nothing is dying at the moment (especially Leptosoma because I don't have any). I do think you have raised a valid point though. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 That's a terrific idea! Any NSWSC Officials wish to comment on this? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I will bring this up at the next committee meeting and see what the committee thinks - it'd have to be voted on and get a majority support to go through. Since I am a vet myself I could organise the collection of samples/pathology etc. as I know a vet who would be interested in this. That said, it would rest with the committee's decision as to whether or not to go ahead. Also, with the big March auction coming up, if this does get passed I don't know how soon the wheels could be set in motion - the auction represents a lot of extra work for the committee. Cheers, Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Jess, it is great news that you are on the case. I am hoping that the other committee members will also see the importance of such research. Thanks greatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anchar Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Hi all, Having experienced this "wasting" problem years ago with Paracyprichromis nigripinnis, I am interested in following this thread. It is sad to see these fish die slowly before your eyes, and hopefully some headway will be achieved in the near future. What do people think about feeding these fish with flagyl as a precautionary treatment, ie. once every 3 months, give the Cyps., Paras. and maybe Tropheus, a three day course of medication? Obviously adding medication to an aquarium unnecessarily is fraught with concern for good reason, however if these spp. are vulnerable to this condition, maybe a preventative course of medication would be warranted. At least this way, the medication would be ingested while the fish are still in the "eating" phase of the disease. What do you think? merjo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trofius Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 WOW guys I hope that the investigation into these cronic symptoms goes ahead,, on a sader note another lepto went this morning ... now lost 6 out of the 12 and down to 3 boys and 3 girls, hade 8 girls! am now feeding them flake soaked in metronidozol every 4 days, seems to be having some effect, all the remaining ones are still eating and none look "wasted" at the moment,, hope it continues the one that died was the last one that looked "wasted.". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 A big part of the problem with this disease is its insidious nature. A big problem also is that it can take months to kill a fish, or it can take weeks. A big part of the problem with this disease is that I feel most people wouldn’t even know they have a problem. I’ve seen fish get so deformed that from above they are bending into an “S” shape, or from the side they are bowed in the middle. I’ve seen fish that looked pretty normal, and still be taking food, with perhaps just a small patch of red showing through their gill plates, also die. I’ve seen female Malasa who otherwise look good, and the only outward sign of an issue be that they are not breeding. I’ve seen female Malasa drop like flies, and the males remain unscathed. I’ve seen male Malasa with the only outward sign of their distress in a lessening of colour, and a subdued nature, until they too died. I’ve seen Malasa die, while in the same system Mpmbwe remain okay. I’ve seen Mpmbwe females die, but males remain okay. One of the few uniform things I have noticed with my two affected species is that it is pure death on young, you cannot grow young in an affected tank. I’ve put more medicines in than for any other problem with the end result being the same as before I started. The best hope I have had so far is with the use of UV sterilisation, though just yesterday morning I saw one of my two remaining female Malasa not eating….. I think that it is an absolutely terrific idea of Rodney's to have the NSWSC use some of their resources to try and sort this problem out. I would like to see it sooner than later as I’ve had this issue now for what must be going on four years. My last deaths were about a month ago when I had 8 of 11 young Mpmbwe die, no larger than 15mm. I noticed a couple of days ago that one of the remaining three young have a flat stomach, instead of concave. I know what that means....and then there were two! It is a crying shame. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lungy Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Now ya's r scareing me I have 16 adult " yellowhead jumbo mpwimbies " (thanx Steve ) They are absolutely gorgeous ( like Merjo ) Anyway , one is looking sad A.T.M. ... And just got my first mouthfull too It's a male so me-hopes he just got a biff'n for offering his services to the laddies ... Andy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lungy Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 They are on calcium carb which does'nt give the best colouring , But they sure are Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet .. Andy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 How will medicating with flagyl help if the fish are not eating? My understanding is flagyl has to be digested to be effective. I have lost a fair few cyps and nigs in the past as they just don't eat. My experience is they just wither and die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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