cichlid breeding issue

[YeW]

Hi All -

Wondering what you think of this idea:

http://www.sydneycichlid.com/content/?p=134

With these wonderful pictures by Andy in mind?

http://www.aceforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=24191

[Ducksta]

My thoughts are that it is easy to keep the gene pool overflowing when your hybridising with anything you can get your fins on.

I agree with your principle, but illustrating with hybrids? Come on Dave, you can do better

[YeW]

I dont think the colour has anything to do with the hybridisation (and besides I imagine this population is inbred beyond belief)... I think it has to do with selection.

and as for hybrids, well in this instance they are doing something good for the hobby (ie: illustrating my point!)

[Ducksta]

*tisk tisk*

[saudukar]

I must say I think the article speaks enormous amounts of truth.

Not only does the diversity slump at the aquirement of the largest male but also by the fact the juvinile fish are by likely proximity from the same parentage.

When I try and aquire breeding stock. My selection criteria involve selecting multiple bloodlines (as much is possible from the available stock) then selecting the male for its condition.

In fact I try when ever possible to NEVER purchase the largest male. I find allowing subdominate males to come out of the selection of "same" size and condition fish to yeild much better male specimens. Also where possible swap males from different bloodlines time to time to mix it up.

Decline in condition can be attributed to MANY different reasons though.

Mostly I think it is attributed to hobbists simply accepting poor quality stock in the first place for breeding purposes.

There needs to be distinction between display and breed quality. Much like breeding dogs and other livestock that have established standards for breeding and condition.

[YeW]

Hi Saudukar -

I agree, it certainly doesnt account for all the decline we see - but my suspicion is it accounts for a very fair percentage (90%?)

Here's an extremely inbred population, with a VERY small gene pool - with colour vastly better than the best red devils we see in the hobby. From the pictures of the fish in the water it doesnt seem like there are many poorly coloured devils present at all!

[Bijengum]

Is it not possible that the variety of live fresh food in the pondage might be a major factor.

Hi Saudukar -

I agree, it certainly doesnt account for all the decline we see - but my suspicion is it accounts for a very fair percentage (90%?)

Here's an extremely inbred population, with a VERY small gene pool - with colour vastly better than the best red devils we see in the hobby. From the pictures of the fish in the water it doesnt seem like there are many poorly coloured devils present at all!

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[Ash]

Hi Saudukar -

I agree, it certainly doesnt account for all the decline we see - but my suspicion is it accounts for a very fair percentage (90%?)

Here's an extremely inbred population, with a VERY small gene pool - with colour vastly better than the best red devils we see in the hobby. From the pictures of the fish in the water it doesnt seem like there are many poorly coloured devils present at all!

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yeah but remember any fishes colour will intensify after living in a pond for a while, they seem to get a tan.

I kind of plan to do what you've explained with my yellows when I get them, but step 3 is a drama - housing them all seperately.

[cobaltcraig]

Would the intense colours have anything to do with the fish being in merky water as opposed to fish that are in glass tanks

showing greater colour to be noticed

why I say this sometimes I transport fish in white buckets when they get to the store they look very drab however half hour later they colour right up

the same fish transported in bags dont drop as much colour

thats my bit on the colour issue

now as for line breeding in amazes me with frontie breeders"guys i am not picking on you"

however if the fish has crooked bars its kulled what genes are we also kulling

just a few thoughts

cheers

craig

[Colfish]

Would the intense colours have anything to do with the fish being in merky water as opposed to fish that are in glass tanks

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to take this suggestion one step further,

i'm positive a diet of live natural food would be the biggest single contributing factor in the intensity of the colours

inbreeding and cross breeding would have an effect, though to a lesser degree imo

my thoughts; C

[sandy001]

I have kept goldfish for many years indoors & outdoors and have noticed a massive difference in colour intensity in the same fish fed the same food after being moved from an indoor aquarium to an outdoor pond in full sun.

I have no doubt that the suns rays have caused this.

Dave

[WAZ]

The sun's rays rubbish Dave

Its all the cats peeing in ya pond mate.

[Ducksta]

I thought this was interesting...

.... The next four are variants of Red Devil, you would find that the colour fades very quickly once you get them home. ....

This surely goes a long way to 'proving' that the basis of the improved colour (at least in this case) is environment over genetics

You would be amazed how much easier it was to sell fry that were raised outdoors. Their colour is far more vibrant than that of tank raised fish.

Dave I don't disagree that you are correct in your article, regarding the prevalence of sub-par breeding practices, but it being the root of 90% of the decline???

Also Re: assumptions that the cichlids in Hazelwood sprang from a "VERY small" gene pool - I don't disagree, BUT - I think your forgetting, most of our cichlid species seem to spring from import batches of 10-20 fish anyway

[oakes]

Loss of colour in animals in captivity occurs not only in fish but other animals including birds. In some species of finch the plumage gets duller over time, usually in terms of generations. The causes are probably varied and debatable, but diet can be a primary factor (like what happens with flamingos in captivity). I suspect that other stimuli play a role for both fish and birds, such as the behavioural (breeding/territorial display) factors canvassed in other posts. In captivity the only solution, in addition to outcrossing to wild stock, is selective breeding for colour. I agree that the way we generally select our breeding stock doesn’t promote natural colour enhancement. We need to bear in mind that the aim is not just to create fish that are more pleasing to the eye, but that more closely resemble the naturally occuring species/variants. I believe that other color mutations, however minor, should be eliminated where found. Others might disagree, in fact, regrettably, color mutations in many other captive bred birds and fish command a much higher price than the original wild colour, and in many cases, pure original strains are becoming very difficult to find.

Having said the above, I do think there is some truth in the limited stock theory. The fact is, the larger the population base, the more variety and the easier it is to find better quality specimens to select from.

[Cichlabxr]

Hi Yew,

I have a question first. Do all states buy their fish from the same importer? If not then our stock coming from 10-20 fish is not quite true. I'd be interested to know how many importers there are Australia wide?

It is impossible for anyone to separate all their males but collectively we could do it. I have what I believe to be good quality L.fuelleborni. I could give one each from the same batch to say 20 people who could house them in tanks without this species. They could grow them out, say in a display tank and we could monitor the progress of each. Just an idea. Obviously there would be other variables such as diet and water conditions but its a start. Other people could do likewise with different species. The question is how many people could we get to participate?

Regards Martin

[Ash]

I think Dave was referring to the species that aren't on the import list anymore or are much cheaper locally bred so not imported

[Cichlabxr]

Hi Ash,

To the best of my knowledge L.fuelleborni isn't on the import list. I have obviously been selling mine too cheap if you don't include them in the "cheap locally bred" group.

Regards Martin

[Ash]

ok, substitute "and/or" for "or" in my last post then

I was getting at it's a bigger problem in fish that ARE NOT being brought in wild caught, the reason for not bringing them is irrelevant for this conversation

[D6C1]

What proof does one have if the fish are wild caught? What can you ask for to prove that is so?

[Josh]

As a general rule, wild caught tend to be larger fish. I very much doubt that most of the fish that come here illegally are wild caught becuse it is much easier to conceal a small fish then it is to hide a big fish.

If you deal with some you can trust then you take them on their word. If they says it is then it is.

[Paulochromis]

Has anyone considered the fact that in their efforts to avoid hybridization and to minimize aggresion, cichlid breeders often keep single species tanks, or at least do not mix fish with similar courting dress. In doing this, the "need" for the female to discriminate based on colour actually diminishes, and if left to decide on her own she might prefer Yew's "biggest" fish.

Another point is the establishment of dominant vs sub-dominant and how this relates to the degree of colouration in the "dominant" male. Don't forget that in the wild sub-dominants DO get to breed, and many females are less than monogamous.

George W. Barlow, in his fantastic book "The Cichlid Fishes: Nature's Grand Experiment in Evolution", talks about the dynamics of "natural" (ie not aquarist-driven) breeding/selection at length in many types of cichlid.

I heartily recommend it to anyone interested in this subject.

Hmm, enough pontification, back to reading the other threads...

Cheers,

[Cichlabxr]

I see now Ash, I think What i was really getting at, is do people care enough to try and rectify the problem. Is it feasible to try and get enough interested parties together to work out a plan of approach.

Regards Martin

[Simonauv]

Many moons ago I started a project called the Krib Project because I was dismayed at the quality of the kribensis that was being offered for sale. Their colours were drab, their vigor was poor with 'sudden male death syndrome' (my term - don't search for it! lol) being rife. The goal of the krib project was to selectively breed krib based on colour to improve the overall look and to select for vigour among the colourful to improve vigour and to educate people about selective breeding to give good results. The crux of the issue was that bread-and-butter species like krib and convicts were being indescriminantly bred to produce maximum numbers instead of maximum quality and species that were deemed 'common' were becoming uncommon because they were considered 'common' AND looked boring into the deal. In a few generations it was clear that by selectively breeding for colour in krib you could improve the saturation of the red in the belly of both males and females and increase the number of tail spots on the males and even have tail spots appear on the females. Vigour was more difficult to improve but with good husbandry and a change in thinking when breeding them it was possible to avoid 'sudden male death syndrome'. Some people might remember me posting a photograph of a female convict I bred as part of a selective breeding program for normal convicts. She was spectacular! I selected for pattern definition in males and females and colour intensity in females. In a few short number of generations (hey they are still convicts lol just add water!) I had beautifully coloured females and males with clear dark clearly defined lines with good body shape. Good looking fish will sell well and get newbies into cichlids whether they are common or not and these are as good as any for newbies to cut their teeth on.

The underlying theory for both projects was that the gene pool for both species was still sufficiently deep to allow for many different gene combinations to appear (to give a human example the number of different combination of chromosomes, of which we have 23, resulting from the combination of sperm from a man and an egg from a lady is something like 70 trillion different chromosome combinations - and we only produce 1 or two at a time - i.e. the chance of any one sybling looking identical to another is 1 in 70 trillion(ish) - imagine the different possibilities in one spawn froma fish that lays 1000 eggs at a time!), some of which would result in superior colour/pattern quality, and by selecting these individuals a net improvement in the colours of the species as a whole could be achieved.

The point YeW was making by referencing Andy's Hazelbrook fishing outing was that left to their own devices female cichlids will choose as mates the most vividly coloured mates with which to breed with. My theory on that is that adult males with intense colour that survive to breeding age/size must display certain qualities of fitness that allow him to be both colourful, and so stand out more easily making him an easier target to predators, yet still survive to adulthood. The red devils in Andy's pics did not look especially like hybrids to me yet their colour was fantastic (it could also have a lot to do with a natural diet too - or is it 'Springfield Syndrome'? lol what kind of power station is it? lol) - why would they be so fantastically coloured and run the risk of some water bird eating them??? SEX of course!

Species that would benefit from more careful selective breeding (and I'm only thinking SA, West Africans, or CA cichlids - not much into the Africans) include firemouth, convicts, krib, jewel cichlids, angels (the wild form), blue acara, green terror, festae, and oscars to name a few. I'm sure people could add to this list and you don't need a lot of tank space to do it, just a few tanks and a few oscars or jags to clean up the ones that don't make the cut lol.

It's good to see this issue being raised again. I can see a number of issues with the methodology though;

* separating males from females may not allow people to accurately judge their colour because a lot of males don't colour up without females to display to or if there are more dominant males around.

* colour in females is sometimes more intense (like in krib and convicts).

* the better colours may be largely due to environmental factors.

* don't feed colour enhancing foods - let their natural colours come through.

* don't sell the crap - cull until the line is consistently good.