Decline in quality

[YeW]

Hi Guys -

Was talking with Jess and Julian today about why cichlids seem to decline in quality once they have been in the hobby for a while and the possible ways to fix it. I think the discussion we had was very useful and thought it might be of interest to the wider hobby.

Ok. Here's our observation: Cichlids seem to decline in quality when removed from the lake.

The general opinion is that the decline is largely due to inbreeding due to relatively poor stock. During our chat Jess and Julian rightly pointed out that the thing that keeps "quality" as we see it high is sexual selection of males by females in the lake.

When people in Australia (or anywhere else) choose fish we generally buy a small group (say 6-12) and grow them up. The largest and most aggressive male becomes the alpha male and in most cases we breed from this fish. It is here that the choice in males for females is being removed by the hobbyist.

What I think would be a good alternative is this: Buy your group of 6-12 fish (more is better). Each time a fish shows a hint of colouring up, remove that male and place it in a tank by itself. What you should get then is 6 tanks (playing the odds - assuming you bought 12 fish) with 6 different males in. I think it is the job of the breeder then to select the best possible male for his female cichlids. I think there is this assumption that the first "alpha" male is going to be better coloured than male number 6. I think this is false. Perhaps we should be thinking about doing something like this to ensure our fish - look like the "ones in the pictures"??

On a related note - we were also discussing an observation re: "colour enhancing" foods which seem to make female cichlids male coloured etc. It is interesting to notice that fish fed these foods display very bright colours.... even if initially the fish come from poor stock. This suggests that the genes for the various pigments in the fish are not affected by this "decline" in quality of the fish that we see from wildcaught fish. Rather what we are observing is probably a lack of promotion of these genes.

I think this effectively means we don't loose colour in poorly coloured fish... the fish just no longer express as much coloured pigment. Our job as cichlid hobbyists is to try and maximise this production by carefully selecting "good quality" fish and breeding only from them.

Sorry for the long post - hope this makes some sense - thanks to Jess and Julian for much of what is said in this post .

[Lee Miller]

Hi Dave,

An interesting point of view about the decline in quality of aquarium bred fish in comparison to wild caught fish. Stuart Grant expressed a different view, he claims that the high quality of aquarium bred fish is responsible for the decline in his sales of wild caught fish. But Stuart’s main markets are Europe and the USA which are huge compared to us. I would also imagine that most of the wild caught fish are used as breeders (rather than as display fish) to complement aquarium stocks.

So I am led to the conclusion that the problem with declining quality is pretty much limited to Australia because of our restrictive import laws.

One interesting point that you have made relates to ‘colour enhancing’ foods being able to bring out colours “…even if initially the fish come from poor stock.” The manager of a very reputable LFS once told me that he buys poorly coloured electric yellows, at a very cheap price, and feeds them on quality foods (not the infamous colour enhancer) for a couple of weeks and this brings out their colour to an acceptable standard. This could suggest that maybe our fish aren’t too bad after all – they’re just crying out for a quality and varied diet.

You also raise the issue of breeding for a particular trait (in this case physical appearance). Could this create problems? For example; we, in Australia, seem to be obsessed with breeding Frontosas with straight bars. What if this particular trait was also linked to something nasty like a congenital heart defect? (just a hypothetical example – not a reason for Frontosa breeders to organise a lynch mob baying for my blood! ). Ad Konings has commented on this Australian obsession and pointed out that straight bars are not that common in wild fish. Maybe brightly coloured electric yellows have a liver problem – who knows? A related example; some dog breeds, bred for certain characteristics, can develop problems such as hip dysplasia later in life - not a desirable outcome. Who knows what problems may be associated with a specific trait? I agree with Julian on this one – you just can’t beat natural selection.

I am probably one of the worst when it comes to selecting alpha males for breeding. I have found that, generally, one male and preferably at least 6 females makes a good (and productive) breeding colony. And my alpha male is usually the first juvenile to assume dominance. As Dave pointed out most of us start our breeding colonies from a group of juveniles. I always do. And I have also noticed that a fish that is slower to mature is not necessarily of a lesser quality.

I really liked the story the other day (was it on the SCP?) about a sub-dominant male sneaking in and breeding with a female while the alpha and beta males fought over her. So maybe more males would be better than just the one (if you can live with the ensuing fights and bashed fish).

You observed: “Cichlids seem to decline in quality when removed from the lake.” I tend to agree, but how do we address this? Some possible solutions, as I see them:

· Always feed a variety of quality foods (as close to the fish’s natural diet as possible).

· Allow some degree of ‘natural selection’ by giving the females a choice of breeding partners.

· Don’t be too obsessed with breeding for specific traits.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers,

[Nigel]

I think the other big problem that is overlooked in this country is water quality and more improtant water chemistry. The fish of the rift lakes have evolved in a very complex water chemistry but not many people try to replicate it. I am a big believer in trying to keep them in the appropriate water chemistry. I hate shellgrite coral sand or any other reactive substraits and all these home made buffers and water hardness additives. If you keep them in the right water this will go a long way to improving the quality of the fish you breed. Thats my 2c worth.

[lungy]

I say the Male thats works hardest to show his dominance & (by means of dress)

deserves the prize of LOVE ... Obviously he is stronger and keener to make lil

ones ...

Nigel , We don't live in Africa , so we make do , with what we have

And more importantly , Most hobbyists purchase from Breeders and or shops,

I doubt everbody will adhere to the same water chemistry type's ..

Besides we want hardy stuff ... NOT something that may die if we don't have the

excact perimetre's as the seller/s ...

Andy...

Oh & Nigel , i would like some Nkonde please

[Guest big bad burundi]

I must be a minority,i beleive the wild caught fish should be staying in their lakes not being sold around the world for profit.

[Nigel]

You dont have to live in Africa to replicate the water all you have to do is spend a bit of money.

If we did not take fish from the wild the hobby would be in even bigger trouble. Also there would be no new species as thay have still not been everywhere in the lakes yet. So who knows what thay will find when thay do.

[hoges]

I agree with big bad burundi, doesn't anyone else hate it when you see wild caught circus animals or zoo animals pine to be away from their enclosures.

I think its exactly the same with fish.

If they are bred in the wild, thats where they should stay!!!

Fish bred in captivity never knew anything different and probably wouldn't survive in the wild anyway.

I understand that some wild caught fish must be used to give us the wonderful display of fish that we have offered to us.

Though I think its such a shame that the world seems so caught up from profiting from wild animals.

[Lee Miller]

Or maybe we're stuffing he planet at such a rate that zoos and aquariums might be the only hope for some species.

Nobody knows how many species of Lake Victorian cichlids have been lost forever because of man's introduction of the Nile Perch. Aquariums are the only places some Lake Victorian cichlids still exist. One day they could even be reintroduced if plans to eradicate the Perch ever see the light of day.

Not all collecting of wild species is for profit.

[anchar]

An interesting read. You have all made very valid points. I agree with lungy ( ) that the laws of natural selection usually ensure that the best dressed male gets the girls. However, that's not to say that the 'lesser' coloured male that sneaks in for his cut wouldn't normally be the best looker if the dominant fish was removed.

As far as truly replicating the rift lake properties, again I agree with lungy ( ) that we have to make do with what is available to us in Australia. Remember than many fish keepers (especially the younger members and those new to the hobby) do not have countless dollars to spend on expensive products manufactured by seachem and the like. Marble chips/coral sand/lime sand - although not found in the lakes - do offer a viable and affordable alternative to aligning at least some of the parameters found in the Rift system.

JMOA

merjo

[griffin]

I think we also need to have an attitude of "never being satisfied" with our breeding colonies. That is to say, most people, once they have set up a breeding colony as described above, tend to breed from that colony until they get bored of it and never try to improve it. You might be happy with what you've got now, but you should constantly be on the lookout for a better quality male (or female!) to replace a lesser quality one with. Rather than being on the lookout for a new species to breed, it's better to be on the lookout for better examples of what you are currently breeding.

When people put the effort in (as Dave pointed out to us) poorly coloured, poor quality populations of cichlids can be brought back to their former glory with a bit of intelligent breeding. And in only very few generations, too.

Cheers,

Jess

[fiona]

I disagree with the idea of 'first in best dressed' for males. I select males on quality and also select my next generation (male and female) based on quality. What is quality? Well there isn't really a standard in fish is there? Health, conformation and colour/markings would be my criteria.

My aim in breeding fish is to improve each successive generation (something carried over from my dog breeding). I am finding a group of fish I like and am in these species for the long haul. The successive improvement is done by me by selection, and line breeding, but also by not inbreeding, for which reason I am ensuring that I bring in different bloodlines to vary the genetics (Hongi would be the fish my breeding programme is most advanced with; I am now breeding the next generation and have just now bought in a group of fish from a different source to my main stock to choose a male to breed with my carefully selected group of young females). I am also establishing a small group of friends who breed the same species and we will swap bloodstock at times.

It's not 'natural' to for fish to live in a static group in a small restricted environment. This restricts not only partner choice but also development of smaller, slower maturing or less dominant male fish (and the degrees of difference here may be only small). In the wild, the smaller ones would be more likely to find their own niche where they can develop and mature, and from which they can eventually compete for females.

We are breeding aquarium fish. No matter their origins, they and their progeny are never going to be wild fish. I think it's responsible for breeders to select the best aquarium fish. And I think that this would include not only health and appearance, but also I think that allowing the most dominant fish to breed may actually be detrimental to the aquarium strain. If less dominant fish are bred, that may gradually lead to a more peaceful strain of fish, one that while still showing the species characteristics may also be less likely to murder its tankmates.

Of course not everyone will agree but it's worth thinking about.

[elise007]

My two cents on the colour issue, i have about 30 juvenille Mbuna growing up at present in the one tank, waiting for a new tank for each for the four different species, and have been feeding them mainly on OSI flake food.

For the last week i decided to swap to the main food being Tetra Color Bits instead as the mnor food. Well one week later the colour of the fish is substantially more vivid and bright.

Fish are,

Maingano

E.yellow

Hongi

yellow tailed Acei

All coloured up significantly and nothing else in the tank was changed except the food.

[Guest big bad burundi]

you can pick a male for breeding but thats not to say he will get the knod.

he must be able to go as well as show.

give a choice to choose from nature will takes its coarse.

mind you left unattended the weaker male will be hammered to death prity simple

[lungy]

Merjo ... I LOVE YOU ...

Nigel Thats why we let people like you import them and adjust

them to our enviroment "thankyou" ... Nkonde ?????

Griffin ... When you already have the best available

Where do you then go to improve that species type ??? ... ( AFRICA ) !!!

Fiona ... I wish to *slap* you " were u drunk " ??? hehe

Elise007 .... Honey , you will soon enjoy some nice Electric Oranges ..

Love u all ..

Andy...

[fiona]

Lungy, if you *do* have the best available, and assuming (as with yellows) that you can't go to Africa, what do you do to maintain it? Do you keep breeding them with themselves? Do you go elsewhere to bring in new blood? How do you ensure that what you bring in improves or at least maintains what you have?

As a practical question, I'd be interested to know how you came to have such excellent yellows (as an example that I have seen with my own eyes via Baz and now my young ones from you). Did you buy them? Did you breed them up? How did you acquire/develop the line?

Burundi, a male that can't breed will get the flick by anyone's criteria!

I don't think 'nature can take its coarse [sic]' in a tank environment. In a large body of water, a male can run away to grow up a bit and return another day. In an aquarium, there is nowhere to run. I also have to question the use of the word 'weaker'. Is he weaker, or is he less dominant, or is he perhaps a slower developer? I think that by allowing the fastest developing male to have priority you develop a line of fast developers. I am put in mind here of thoroughbred racehorses. Racehorse owners like fast returns so they like horses that run well at two years old. These are very fast developers. However their careers are generally over by four. There are also slower developing thoroughbreds. These generally become the stayers. They may be racing at nine or ten - middle aged by general horse standards but very old compared to the fast developing sprint horses. Are we developing 'sprint' fish? Can they go the distance better than the slower developers (which may well end up bigger, brighter, and longer lived)?

[YeW]

Hi Guys -

Lee -

I think the americans and the europeans have better fish solely for this reason: If they stuff up a line of fish (which I am certain occurs in much the same way as here) they can always import more. Here - one stuff up can ruin a line.

Elise007 -

The improvement you see is caused by the beta-carotene present in Tetra bits - they are not really showing any more colour (genetically) than previously.

Interestingly if you, me or any other person eats enough beta carotene (eg: lots of carrots), (something I dont suggest or encourage) you also go orange! (it is called Carotenaemia I think).

[lungy]

Fi-Fi The E-yellows i have came from much driving , internal knowledge ,

years of screening And " MOST IMPORTANTLY' i did this all pre-white bird

That way i knew what i was getting ... I would buy a colony of 10 fish and keep

perhaps a select "2" yes 2 only .. The result of this is obvious now , and i can say it was all worth it ... i have a variety of bloodlines ( that are good) and

will always keep selected spawn portions for future quality breeding ...

I used to have the third generation form the origional imports and i let them go 10 years ago * slaps himself for not having forsyth * I won't do this again The stock i have now are "ordinary in comparism " to those

back then :bugga ... Also by close monitoring of my fry i can pre-judge any

imperfections (as we see it ) ... hope that helps ya Honey : bigwink : Biggerwink .

Love ,

Andy ...

[fiona]

Ah well lungy I will have to *slap* you back. So you do apply stringent selection procedures. Was implied by the fish quality but not apparent from your words in your first post. So (correct me if I am wrong) you select from the fish you buy in, and from the ones you breed, you select at a young age, and then allow the first maturing of those pre selected fish to become the breeding male, is that right?

[lungy]

No Lovey I select the bulk of a spawn which shows

good colouring and shape , Whether they are male or fe-males

if they meet my personal standards they get to stay here , if not i sell

them on to Sydney peeps J/k... It's just a personal screening

process i guess ... And so far it seems to work ok ...

Lots of Love

Andy...

Ps... I don't keep every spawn either : roll : roll i just keep the best when i think

it's nessecary ... You actually got part of one of the spawns i have here now ....

lucky you ... : wink : wink ...

[elise007]

Yew,

Yep i knew that, i just found it interesting just how much more vivid the colours are from the Colour bits than the flake, hate to see what a fish fed with that White Crane stuff would look like .

AS you said it's what you eat, same reason why Flamingoes are pink, it's the food they eat they dont start out pink if i recall correctly, purely diet.

Mark

[herefishiefishie]

Could it just be the fact our tanks arent lakes,males & females are restricted in movements.they dont have the same diet;regardless of quality & no matter what chemicals you buy the water is different too.I just added another 3 cichlids to a breeding colony today to keep the mix going.1m & 2f. Like to keep adding to the breeding colonies.

Its been a while since I have seen Lungys stock, but his yellows are tops. In the wild its the female who picks its mate, but in an aquarium do they just mate with whatever male is available??? exception-I have had a female red empress stick her nose up to a few males, & it took a beauty of a specimen to get her to finally breed.4th male. personally I like to buy a few here & there(try for quality) grow them up, seperate the males & see who ends up looking the best. I guess we just have to do the best with what we have.

whoever said aquarium raised fish couldnt live in the wild should check out some dams & creeks up here

Frenchy

now wheres that rod, red devils to catch

[swarvegorilla]

Fiona, your Hongi sound pretty special. I'm growing out 10 at the moment that are quite nice. COmpared to those I have seen in LFS they are great. I have always been a big believer in culling and selecting new breeding stock. Had a very nice line of electric blues going, very sleek. As for yellows? well one day Lungy. Sick of hearing how good your fish are and not having any!

As for a decline in quality. I think thats simply not true. You just have to look around and find people making the effort. Always be someone. Just have to find them is all.

[Rumpig]

Nigel, you condem the use of coral sand, marble chips and home made "rift lake salts" What exactly do you suggest we use?

I agree with Lee Miller on this topic I think people could well be overly obsessed with the quality of our fish. I've seen photos (I know, it's not the same as seeing them in the flesh) of line bred fish and wild caught fish and they look nothing like each other (L. occelatus), line bred fish are simply what the breeder thinks the fish should look like (A. spp "Red rubins").

Mick

[Nigel]

I use Seachem salts and buffers and have been for about 6-7years. I tried a lot of things overs the years and found these to be the best.

[Lee Miller]

Hi Mick,

Thanks for the support but I wasn’t trying to say that we are overly obsessed with the quality of our fish – just that concentrating on certain physical attributes – possibly at the expense of other characteristics – may not be the way to go.

Cheers,

Lee.