Sli_1504 Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Lee I have to agree. Is this talk of getting 'quality' fish more in tune with line breeding? I am wrong but is this going to affect the natural diversity of the fish? Unless we have a constant 'stream' (pardon the pun) of new bloodlines into the country is there anything we can do to rectify this situation? Anyway have thought a bit more opinion would be helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Guys, A very interesting thread! To what degree should in-breeding be avoided? I'm new to the concept of genetics, and I'm about to integrate some fry back into "Mum and Dad's" colony. I realise that consistent in-breeding is an issue, however should it be avoided at all costs or is it OK on the odd occasion? Cheers Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarvegorilla Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 I don't think a few generations inbreeding really makes that much of a difference. I haven't noticed it anyway. It's when people keep the same group going for years and people buy their fry and keep those going and so on and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeW Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 Lee / Others - I am talking about selecting fish for "quality". Included in that term is health, shape, colour and other physical characteristics. Basically we'd be picking the fish that looks the most like the highly coloured males you see in the lake. I am not talking about line breeding long finned forms or anything else similar. A few ppl have raised the prospect of genetic problems associated with line breeding. How would this kind of line breeding (ie: selecting the fish that is the best quality (as described above)) any different to what is occuring now? At present - most breeders make colonies from sibling stock. I would argue that at present we are linebreeding our fish (albeit unconsciously). For the most aggressive and fast growing males (as opposed to coloured males). With regard to obsessing over "straight bars" etc I think this is clearly not the best practice and I'm not certain how to deal with it. It is worth noting that Ad K has repeatedly told us hobbyists that there are fish in the lake without straight bars. However, he never shows them in his books. I think some of the responsibilty for these "fashions" falls to the "fashion magazines" in this case. Inbreeding is generally not a problem so long as regular outcrossing is done and any physically deformed fish are culled. As for the seachem salts issue, are they better than DIY salts? I don't know. I think until someone conducts a small "pilot" study (with appropriate controls) there is no evidence either way. The fact is guys there is limited genetic diversity in the country - this isn't going to change if people are more particular about their breeding methods. I suspect if most peacock breeders did as was suggested in the first post in this topic - peacocks in Australia would be more diverse (genetically) than they are currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Is Seachem salts better than DIY the answer is yes. How do i know? The answer to that is i have made my own salts and buffers from a recipe that turned up here in the early 1970. I have also tried all the other brands that are on the market. I used to breed fish and found that i got the best fry and the best colour from my fish when i started to use Seachem. As for fixing the genetic problem try to get wild caught. I know with some species that would very hard but i think it is the only answer. With a lot of species you will have to try to change the import laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeW Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 Nigel - While I am not saying you are wrong here's a few points to consider: 1. The buffers and salts available for DIY now are different to those available previously. 2. You did you "experiment" sequentially - not simultaneously - so you cannot derive useful data from it. 3.Where all other factors (the fish themselves, temperature, photoperiod, feeding times, food quality, food types, water quality, filtration, air flow, time of year etc) identical? I don't think these data you present are sufficient to make the claim that one is better than the other. If anyone is interested in comparing them here's what needs doing. Keep siblings of the same species in three tanks. Identical filtration, feeding, everything. The only difference being the type of buffering used. Only then can you draw accurate conclusions about whether seachems product (which is chemically VERY similar to the DIY version) makes any difference whatsoever. If a difference is observed - I think you'd also need to show that whatever treatment gave better results could improve stock in other treatments. If you want to continue this discussion Nigel please start a new thread (this one isnt about buffering agents). Cheers - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Correct me if i am wrong here David. I thought this post was about the quality of fish people are breeding and how to improve it. Well if that is true then water chemistry is just as important as the quality of the fish you breed from. I know you dont believe this and you think the DIY recipe is close to the lake chemistry but you are wrong. That is my reason for putting what i know to be true in this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lungy Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 be nice to each other now and no hair pulling .... Andy.. Ps. if the fish are healthy & happy in all respects then why go to extremes with water parimetre's .. jmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeW Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 Nigel - How can it be wrong when it so closely matches the water chemistry of the lake? If you are interested I can provide you with some chemical analyses of the lake's water along with the very close match for the DIY salts. The water chemistry of the water in which the fish are kept in has no genetic ability to alter the fish. Here's where YOU are wrong. This post is about managing genetic lack of colour in fish (ie: through breeding) - not through environmental factors. As Elise007 mentioned earlier you can also get better colours through food - but this post is about something else. In addition, you also should be cautious about what you "know" is right and what you may believe is right. They are two very different things and the first one requires evidence. Here are some more points to consider: - We know the chemistry of the lakes well. - We know the chemistry of the DIY salts well. - We do not know what's in Seachems product or any other commercial product. - No one (Not even you Nigel!) has conducted an experiment from which useful data may be drawn on the relative "usefulness" of these buffers/salts. People are welcome to make up their own mind - I'll keep providing people with a choice and information. I have a lot of respect for you as a fishkeeper Nigel, so don't take this post as an attack. However, I know what makes good data and in this case there is very little on offer to support your view (or mine). The only data we have (ie: the match between lake chemistry and DIY buffer mix) suggests that the DIY salts are a good match for the lakes water chemistry. It does not suggest they are better, worse, pinker, more verbose etc than any commercial product. Cheers - David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Ok here is what i do know the water chemistry of the lakes is very complex. Thay are finding new chemicals all the time. Also thay have still not identified all the chemicals in Lake Tanganyika So Seachem do a lot of research into this and improve there salts and buffers all the time. I can see i am not going to convince everyone of the truth so i think it is up to anybody who wants to know to do the research. I know what i would rather use and i know this from years of experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiona Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Regarding quality and diversity. There is little chance for getting new blood with many of the species we keep. This board could be useful for putting together breeders who care about the quality of their fish, who keep the same species. Eg. Baz and I have already agreed to swap breeding stock of cobalts, yellows, M. maingano. We could put together lists of people in for the long haul for particular species so that as breeders we could draw from a larger genetic pool. Similar to the Krib Project that Simon started, and of which there is still bloodstock floating around that we can put together a list to share (a few names come to mind here and there may be more). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sli_1504 Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 YeW Thankyou for you line breeding/diversity issue. It was insightful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I think that's a great idea Fiona and one that i'd be keen to participate in with any fish I breed. Sometimes tracking down other breeders of the same fish can be a real pain. In my opinion people wouldn't up-date the site/data so we'd be in a position where we're viewing old information which can be frustrating. It's a difficult one to overcome - how do you ensure people keep a "profile/breeders register" up-to-date? Maybe flash the profile up in front of them every fortnight when they enter the site and they just do one click to say, "Yes it's up-to-date"? Could be tedious for some? Cheers Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 chemistry is changing, eg;tangy.the Ruzizi river that supplies 50% of the salt deposits to the lake, has had a tenfold increase in sedimentation over the last 2 decades. be hard to copy an ever changing ecosystem now Im just pulling you....but Ive tried home made recipes & the ready made stuff, personally fish dont seem to mind either, breeding,colour...... Frenchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fins Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I'm all for improving the quality of all our fish in the hobby. But I can't help but be a bit pessimistic. So all you breeders will choose the best "quality" fish from a colony and then what? sell the rest? Ok, you sell all the sub-standard fish to other probable breeders ........ Have I missed something? or do I sense a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Ok, you sell all the sub-standard fish to other probable breeders Good point however consider this: a) surely no breeder could actually keep ALL their "good stock" b) if you are a breeder looking for stock isn't the onus on you to actually make sure you have good quality stock to breed from - otherwise don't breed them, on sell them c) there's plenty of fishkeepers out there who don't actually care for breeding their fish - they can have all the "substandard" stock Cheers Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarvegorilla Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 A moot point but sometimes fish do better in water that doesn't exactly match the water they are found in in the wild. I have brownae that like my tap water better without buffers. (although that is lake vic, not sure of chem) As for the breeder registar it sounds like an excellent idea. Have tried it before on a small scale swapping males...... but was difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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