Cichlid_KB Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Im in it for the fun, but if the fish can pay for themselves and then some beer money all the better. KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keleher Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 i couldnt agree more ViS i walk into my fishroom today and found my G.surinamensis had spawned for the first time and i was static. whateva money i do get from fry which isnt alot gose straight back into the hobby but most of my funding comes from my part time job. so im not relly in it for the money. james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinky Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I keep americans - I can't be in it for the money :LOL: ← and yeh this is a great thread, heaps of interesting points, nice to hear everyones oppinion and different perspectives on this issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I fall into both categories. I have a lot of display tanks with my favourite fish in them but I also like to be able to at least cover the costs. In saying that, all my tanks are aquascaped as I hate that "battery hen" look that many breeders have. It drips of "let's make a buck" IMO. The sight of a glass tank void of substrate and rock work makes me sad. How much enjoyment does a fish gain from picking at a besser brick or swimming circles round a clay pot? JMO. Andrea ← Andrea do you think the fish can tell the difference between a 'PVC maze' and Texas Holey Rock? While I don't take personal offence at your post, I know for me, when I look into my tanks I don't see PVC pipes or terracotta pots, I see my gorgeous fish I have in the past set-up display tanks with real rocks and plants and wood, but found articificial hidey holes more convenient for breeding tanks. I don't breed fish with the sole aim of making money, but I prefer being able to catch females and not leave them spit in a tank full of hungry adult fish. I am venturing into the wonderful world of Tropheus very shortly, so I have started sorting through my old piles of slate, sandstone and river stones down behind the pool, with the idea of providing a natural scape for them. I wish I could get my hands on some of them limestone tubes. Well I wish someone else got their hand's on them and sold them to me. Why is Australia Post so unkind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 How much enjoyment does a fish gain from picking at a besser brick or swimming circles round a clay pot? JMO. ← This is my point exactly.. how can someone, who have racks and racks of bare tanks for the sole purpose of breeding fish (so as to make $$), claim that s/he's in it for the hobby? I have seen this whole saga repeats itself everytime a new species comes into the market - where people would go nuts trying to breed new species to death and reap as much profit as possible. Personally I find it amusing that some people in this forum try to justify this greediness by claiming that they breed fish for a "challenge". Why not just admit that you are trying to make money out of the the fish industry and most importantly pay tax like everyone else? The fish industry is a multi-million dollar industry in Australia and I don't have a problem with people making money from it as long as my hard-earned tax is not being used to support the livelihood of these tax cheats.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 How much enjoyment does a fish gain from picking at a besser brick or swimming circles round a clay pot? JMO. ← This is my point exactly.. how can someone, who have racks and racks of bare tanks for the sole purpose of breeding fish (so as to make $$), claim that s/he's in it for the hobby? I have seen this whole saga repeats itself everytime a new species comes into the market - where people would go nuts trying to breed new species to death and reap as much profit as possible. Personally I find it amusing that some people in this forum try to justify this greediness by claiming that they breed fish for a "challenge". Why not just admit that you are trying to make money out of the the fish industry and most importantly pay tax like everyone else? The fish industry is a multi-million dollar industry in Australia and I don't have a problem with people making money from it as long as my hard-earned tax is not being used to support the livelihood of these tax cheats.. ← You might be on to something, maybe we should all register ourselves as businesses and use the losses as tax write off's for our actual income? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I don't think things are really as clear cut as all that. I keep breeding colonies, because I like the challenge of breeding cichlids. The 6 breeding tanks look fairly presentable, with substrate and rocks (yep, real ones). However I also have a rack of 14 tanks, most of which are bare tanks used for growing out fry. Some of these tanks house breeding pairs/trios of smaller fish, because I cannot help myself I think it's a healthy balance, it works for me, and the small amount of money I get from selling fry helps to offset the costs of my hobby. As for registering as a business and offsetting costs, it's not that easy You're also not obliged to pay tax on earnings from a hobby, and I think you are able to earn up to 20k before you have to become a business. Again, check with the ATO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wui39 Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I think plenty of other hobbies can earn up to 20K.....fish maybe not although............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Personally I work and I earn money at work. With the fish we breed them and then what should I do with the fry? We generally sell them, although more often than not the fish go to homes at extremely reasonable prices or for free if the need is there. My electricity bill was over $1300 this quarter. I also spend six hours every nine days just doing water changes on them. I wonder how much profit I am making on these fish of mine? Oh yes and my fishroom I am building, well that has literally cost me tens of thousands of dollars, but whos counting, after all I can sell the electric yellows for $4 each. I am not in it to make money. Believe me all I need to do is overtime and then I will be making money! I do it because we have a severe case of MTS and Aline who is also very heavily involved. . I think there is another name for this disease but it escapes me PS the L numbers are beautiful and I cannot wait until their prices fall to an affordable level. I would love to breed them. Now there is a challenge! Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeWs Fish Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Yea, I agree with Matthew. I think its more a case of recovering money I have spent on my 'habbit'. I'm in it to try and breed the impossible, observe the pretty colours and behaviour, and yes, of course, to try and recover some money that I spent admiring and catering for the little buggers. But wouldnt it be nice if you didnt have to wake up early in the morning... drive to the other side of sydney... respond to about 20 emails.. all hitting you up for work... most days wprk through lunch.. drive back to the other side of sydney... Imagine how good life would be if you could make a decent buck from your hobby... reality of it all is there is work and there is play and unfortunatly fish breeeding is just play for me. Wish i could mix them tho. I'd be a very happy dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus13 Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 You're also not obliged to pay tax on earnings from a hobby, and I think you are able to earn up to 20k before you have to become a business. Again, check with the ATO Incorrect. as per the ATO's ruling on hobby related income (all hobbies). If you sell something for financial gain, or to offset costs incurred it is legally classed as income, and must be declared as such. The only exemption to this relates to the Bartering of good or stock, i.e. no monetary devices changing hands. Sadly there will always be people in this hobby for the wrong reason, as well as those that pass on false information under the guild of authority. Keep it as a hobby and it should last a lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuong Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 how can someone, who have racks and racks of bare tanks for the sole purpose of breeding fish (so as to make $$), claim that s/he's in it for the hobby? Alot of the major Discus breeders in Singapore might take offence at this, given how much dedication and time they've put into their fish to ensure quality. Racks of bare bottom tanks may look aesthetically unappealing, but it's more a matter of water quality than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobaltcraig Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I Breed fish for enjoyment ,But I have to say without the money to cover the costs it would be near impossible to keep as many as I do "so there is a balance" My last power bill was $1085 I have put some figures down and reckon I need around $1500 alone per year to run my 45 tanks food + water maybe another $1000 (this is not accurate) my labour is my love with me spending around 2 hours a night in the fish room with a further 8 hours over the weekend I keep the basic malawi stuff and some special fish "not many around" But its all the species that I keep that I want to example I still have crimson tides going and they still pay there way and even if they didn't I would still keep them I have another project I am starting which will be a 8x2x2 or near to The fishroom will pay for it and stock it with old colonys I don't want to breed anymore or excess male fish but I think you do need a balance of fish v money v love to be sucessfull Cheers Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mianos Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Incorrect. as per the ATO's ruling on hobby related income (all hobbies). If you sell something for financial gain, or to offset costs incurred it is legally classed as income, and must be declared as such. The only exemption to this relates to the Bartering of good or stock, i.e. no monetary devices changing hands. Sadly there will always be people in this hobby for the wrong reason, as well as those that pass on false information under the guild of authority. Keep it as a hobby and it should last a lifetime. ← The first bit is incorrect (the last two lines are true though ) The ATO has specific guidelines on the difference between a business and a hobby. See this page: http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.a...ntent/25307.htm The example here from the page illustrates the point Example: Conducting a hobby Tchen makes wooden toys at home. He works about six hours a week and sells the toys only to his family and friends. He intends the activity to remain small and is happy if all he does is cover his costs. Tchen would be considered to have a hobby. As such, he would not include the amounts he received in his income tax return. Consequently, he cannot claim any expenditure he incurred in relation to his hobby against any other income he earns. if you are making significant money you should consult a professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Just out of curiousity. Ive been considering this question. I feel that when i manage to get a fish to the age of selling or giving away (regardless of which i choose) I feel that then and only then I have successfully bred that species. I was just wondering who shared those views. So for me selling/giving away the fish would be a reflection of me successfully breeding a species rather than a way to make money As far as breeding tanks go I agree that i love my tanks to look natural but i do understand some need for barebottom tanks. With the current rack i bought, when i set it up i plan for adult tanks to be decorated with wood and plants (dwarf cichlids) and the fry tanks Im considering bare bottom, so that i can manage waste levels better. Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 as per the ATO's ruling on hobby related income (all hobbies). If you sell something for financial gain, or to offset costs incurred it is legally classed as income, and must be declared as such. The only exemption to this relates to the Bartering of good or stock, i.e. no monetary devices changing hands. ← Markus do you have a link to show where you found this information? It seems quite different to the way I understood things, and also quite different to the information Mianos has found. I can understand the need to pay tax on things which are sold for financial gain, but paying tax when you are simply offsetting costs seems a bit over the top. If my hobby costs me $10k per year and I sell $3k of fish per year, I am still running at a $7k loss. Surely if your information is correct, and we I am obliged to pay tax on that $3k, I would then also be able to deduct all my expenses and claim a net loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 use the link mianos posted, its far more accurate. their examples are good ones. probably the biggest way the ATO distinguishes between a hobbiest and a business is advertising. hobbiests might advertise in a paid forum maybe once it a blue moon. a business would do so regularly. the only other distinction is when you buy something then resell it at a profit. so it with regularity and its enough to get some attention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 as per the ATO's ruling on hobby related income (all hobbies). If you sell something for financial gain, or to offset costs incurred it is legally classed as income, and must be declared as such. The only exemption to this relates to the Bartering of good or stock, i.e. no monetary devices changing hands. ← Markus do you have a link to show where you found this information? It seems quite different to the way I understood things, and also quite different to the information Mianos has found. I can understand the need to pay tax on things which are sold for financial gain, but paying tax when you are simply offsetting costs seems a bit over the top. If my hobby costs me $10k per year and I sell $3k of fish per year, I am still running at a $7k loss. Surely if your information is correct, and we I am obliged to pay tax on that $3k, I would then also be able to deduct all my expenses and claim a net loss ← perhaps the letter of the law is written as Markus said t cover the exceptional cases where people actually turn a profit - but what Govt in it's right mind would police it when it would result in virtually everyone having negatively geared hobbies for a tax break? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abob Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Pt 1: I keep the fish that interest me (and aparently not many others : apistos, killifish and corys). Breeding them for me is for a challenge and to watch the fish grow and develop and the parents to show off their full behaviour. I agree with AdamR's comment about selling the fry being the point at which I claim success for the spawn or the species. Another driving force is the wish to spread the species I enjoy to as many people as possible. I have not yet sold a species, only excess fry as I only buy fish I'm really keen on and want to keep them long-term over many generations. I do like to sell my fry for the sense of accomplishment and to cover the frozen food bills. I find selling them at a reasonable price (ie not bargain prices) has helped me avoid anyone wanting a quick buck or any-old cheap fish. The people who contact me tend to be real enthusiasts and so the hour or more of chatting about fish is worth as much as the $10 or $20 I might get for the 2 pairs of fish they buy. I think if you are in fish to solely make money then you are not good at business. I think 99.9% of folks would be better off delivering junk mail as you would make more money and get some exercise to boot. Pt. 2 I had a pretty good read through the ATO web site a while ago to see if I could claim my fish loses against my regular income. The gist they give is that a income from a hobby is not taxable (even if you make a profit). The important point is the definition of a 'hobby' vs 'business' which the website goes into pretty good detail on. Most of us would be in hobby category (as there is no obsession category) as you need to be intent on making a profit to be classed a business. From the ATO website. "The courts have provided some guidelines to help determine whether a business exists or whether it is, in fact, a hobby. There are no hard and fast rules. The Tax Office looks at all the circumstances of a case in determining whether a business exists. Guidelines adopted by the courts include the following: * Does your activity have a significant commercial purpose or character? * Do you have more than just an intention to engage in business? * Do you have a purpose of profit as well as a prospect of profit? * Is there repetition and regularity to your activity? * Is your activity of the same kind and carried on in a similar manner to businesses in your industry? * Is your activity planned, organised and carried on in a business-like manner? * What is the size, scale and permanency of your activity? * Is your activity better described as a hobby, recreation or sporting activity?" Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 I keep fish purely for enjoyment purposes , i have two main display tanks and if they breed and im able to fish them out then i will , i have a fry tank however im not in it to make a profit when i do sell fry i tend to sell them pretty cheaply, fish seem to move slower here in Melbourne , if anything the little money that it makes allows me to buy new fish or other fishy stuff . Unless you are breeding on a large scale or breeding rare fish i doubt there is much profit to be made . The only bare bottom tank i have is my catfish tank and thats only becuase they make so much mess. My tanks are all scattered throughout the house , i dont see the point really of having a fishroom in the garage and not being able to see your fish all the time, although im working on getting a rack in my laundery lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mianos Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 The only exemption to this relates to the Bartering of good or stock, i.e. no monetary devices changing hands. ← p.s. while we are on tax, bartering is not exempt just because money does not change hands. "What is the tax treatment of bartering transactions? Barter transactions are assessable and deductible for income tax purposes to the same extent as other cash or credit transactions. When an entity that is a member of a trade exchange makes a taxable supply to another member, there is a liability for tax, including goods and services tax (GST)." http://www.ato.gov.au/print.asp?doc=/content/35349.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 im working on getting a rack in my laundery lol ← Next one is for the kitchen right Sarah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 * Does your activity have a significant commercial purpose or character? * Do you have more than just an intention to engage in business? * Do you have a purpose of profit as well as a prospect of profit? * Is there repetition and regularity to your activity? * Is your activity of the same kind and carried on in a similar manner to businesses in your industry? * Is your activity planned, organised and carried on in a business-like manner? * What is the size, scale and permanency of your activity? * Is your activity better described as a hobby, recreation or sporting activity?" Based on the points above, I would imagine that most of the so-called hardcore aquarium "hobbyists" would fall under this ruling. Why else would anyone keep racks and racks of bare tanks, if not for: * intending to engage in commercial business (selling hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of fish in one/two transactions is engaging in commercial purposes IMO esp. if we are talking of about pure profit in most instances) * hoping to achieve major profit (by hoping to be the first to buy and eventually sell newly introduced species either through illegal smuggling or factory-style breeding) * trying to increase profitability repeatedly and regularly (by sellers illegally smuggling in fish; greedy hobbyists snapping up illegal/newly-introduced fish, mass breeding them, selling them for large profit before eventually dumping them only for newer species) Given these arguments and the fact that it's highly unlikely that these operators don't plan their "business" in advance (given that it takes much planning to purchase racks and racks of tanks, set up centralised heatings, feeding and breeding fish etc), I would consider these "hobbyists" to be none other than sneaky business operators. If this is the case, why should they not pay tax like the rest of us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ged Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 I definately don't do it for the dollars. I find that it is the pleasure I get out of seeing them breed as the best part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakeyBoyR Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 ATO isn't interested until you earn a substantially large amount of it mate. You're allowed by law to make some money off your hobby, particularly when most of that money is going back into the hobby anyway. I would hardly call the grand or so a year a breeder may be able to make (Im sure some make much more, but I doubt many do) off their fish worthy of being taxed. That grand or so would not even come close to paying for water, electricity, food, chemicals .. more fish And how exactly would your tax be paying for their livelyhood? I doubt many breeders on here do nothing else but breed cichlids. I'd imagine that 99% of the work-aged hobbyists have proper paying jobs. In which case they're already paying tax on their declared income. The only people your tax would be supporting would be those people unfortunate enough to have some sort of disability stopping them from working. In which case, should they have to pay tax because they find something that interests them and at the same time is not affected by their disability? Hardly. Dont take this as a personal attack champ, I just dont think what you said was very well thought-out. I've been in this hobby for a while now, but as a hobbyist and on the retail end, and I think I've met one person in that whole time (and I've met a whooolllleeee lotta fishy people) that was earning so much that I honestly they felt they should be paying tax. And they ended up going pro and paying tax anyway! Australia is one of the most over-taxed countries in the world, and I'll be damned if I'd support anyone saying that, on top of the massive amount of tax we already pay, that we should have to pay MORE tax on one of the few things we can do for fun and also make a little money out of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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