Nigel Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 I have been told that some of the frontosa arriving will not have a location. I understand they will be sold as just Blue Zaire. So I thought I would let forum members know that there are three locations that are sold as Blue Zaire. These are Moba, Kapampa and Kitumba. If anyone is buying these I would advise you to ask for the location before you fork out a large chunk of your hard earned money. We don't want these location to get mixed up I don't think it would be good for the hobby. Just some friendly advise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatoscarlover Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Hey Nigel, is there any reason for importers to mis-labell them? as in, is 1 location more expensive than any of the others or look diffrent to the others or is it just that they dont care?? Il just about put my money down now that location tags wont hang around for very long except with a few expeariance hobbiests. Any ideas on when they might be arriving?? Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wui39 Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 I thought the whole idea to have location markers were used to differentiate the slight variations that occur in the locations throughout the lake. Although it is my belief now that importers use the mislabel to put the price of a fish up. For example if its hard to get that fish due to remote location or war, if you can mislabel a very similar fish, you can put the price up by a few dollars. Just my opinion on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 must just be me but i dont really see it as a big deal. people were paying for zaire blues that were long distance swimmers with no hint of a locality and paying far more than they will be paying once they are legally coming in. i dont think most people will care on the locality on a zaire blue, just being of that type is good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted October 5, 2005 Author Share Posted October 5, 2005 Well Gav that attitude is what I am trying discourage. The ones I will sell will come with a guarantee of there location. The reason for some importers not selling them with a location is thats how they buy them. I would hate to think that people will buy these and mix the locations. If I know of anyone doing it I will come around to there place and have a very serious talk to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marls Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Well Gav that attitude is what I am trying discourage. The ones I will sell will come with a guarantee of there location. The reason for some importers not selling them with a location is thats how they buy them. I would hate to think that people will buy these and mix the locations. If I know of anyone doing it I will come around to there place and have a very serious talk to them. ← I agree with Nigel....the same reason why we don't mix different locations for A. peacocks !! Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 so what do the people do that already have zaire? freeze them cos they have no location? i doubt that will be happening, and these are the zaire that will have fry on the market first. yes it would be ideal if we could keep all localities separate. I am a realist though and think its best if we just aim to keep the zaire, mpimbwe, kigoma etc in their separate types as that is a far more realistic goal than trying to also keep separate localities for each type pure. as for aulonocara, well i thought we were talking tangs here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hathoor Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Do they come in 6 bars or 7? I'd like to have a couple for my display tank. Cheers Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted October 5, 2005 Author Share Posted October 5, 2005 Gav you say some strange things at times. I understand that the ones that come in before where Moba's and Mpimbwe's. So why would anyone want to mix them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 I think it is quite obvious that getting a location would be better than not getting a location, it is just common sense. I would also want to know what the heck i'm getting for my $$. Those who bought zaire previously probably thought they were getting fish that may not be seen in the hobby, there fore what location they got was probably neglegable. Now that they can be 'legally' imported, it is surely our responsibility to mange the stocks we get in and make sure they don't get crossed, no matter what the locality. Just my 2 cents Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Gav you say some strange things at times. I understand that the ones that come in before where Moba's and Mpimbwe's. So why would anyone want to mix them up. ← And how do you know if the ones you have are Moba or Mpimbwe? I gotta agree with Gav to a point here - if there's already a vague "zaire blue" population in Aust, how are those people to know what exact varient they are? Yes in a perfect world they should all be kept as their own exact varient, but this world isn't perfect so those imperfections have to be lived with & accounted for. eg: if someone has pre-import "zaire blues" & breeds them with "Moba" because that's what they could get that is also from Zaire, then they can only sell the offspring as the vague "Zaire blue" name, not "Moba" I know that isn't ideal, but it's probably the best outcome anyone can hope for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted October 5, 2005 Author Share Posted October 5, 2005 Well if what you and Gav are saying is true its going to end up in one hell of a mess. We will end up with the same problems we have with Aulonocara and few other fish that have an unknown location. I for one hope it does not happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Why? It would keep the market for imported pure lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Well what do you propose people with pre-import Zaires with unknown locality do? If importers bring in the three varients labeled as "Zaire" they won't know any better than to buy them! I know it isn't desirable, but it's likely to be the reality. hell, how many average LFS visiting aquarists are going to have the "Aussie Burundi" mixed in with two or more new varients anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 There have been two Ziare varient bought in and you can pick the difference. I have seen both types, I know nothing abaout frontosa, and even I can pick them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiem Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 I would have to agreee with Nigel,as for Aulonocaras we have juniors asking if it is ok to cross Undu reef blue neons with chiwindis .no way and they see this and want to know what the hells going on from experienced breeders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 most stores wouldnt even KNOW what the supposed locality for 6 bar frontosa we have here. the few times i have bothered with calling them burundi i got blank faces and strange questions. they sure know about 6 bars though. so i can foresee plenty of the new frontosa coming in and being mixed with what we already have. most the fish keeping public are not purists and i am sure they wont be separated. so yes, its ideal if those that get localities keep them as localities and not mix them. but its naive to think that all these new variants wont be getting mixed up then onsold at less discerning stores around the country in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 There have been two Ziare varient bought in and you can pick the difference. I have seen both types, I know nothing abaout frontosa, and even I can pick them. ← can you tell me how to tell then? cause my friend had 6 of these vaguely specified animals & he would like to do the right thing. they are a bit over 1yr old/4-5" long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Ash I dont know the difference, But put them side by side and it stands out. Like I said I know nothing about Frontosa but have a mate who does, and who has a few and theres a difference I will ask him and let you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 just want to clarify that at no stage did i say its ok to do. I am just giving an opinion on what i think the outcome of the new imports will be. i dont breed frontosa so anything i say will only really be opinion, it will in no way shape what is actually bred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatoscarlover Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 I gotta agree with Gav to a point here - if there's already a vague "zaire blue" population in Aust, how are those people to know what exact varient they are? Yes in a perfect world they should all be kept as their own exact varient, but this world isn't perfect so those imperfections have to be lived with & accounted for. Il agree with you both on that much. There are going to be the responsible and well aware who keep them with locations and the same varients together but i think there will be just as many who will buy them from the LFS and breed them with the Aussie Burundi either because they dont know or dont care. We should disacourage people from mixing varients/locations but its frowned upon in the peacock world and i still see a diffrent hybrid every week or 2 so i dunno how much effect it really has. Lets hope that there are enough responsible hobbiest intrested in breeding them to keep high quality and ones with locations in supply for all of us, im not holding my breath though! Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 OK so Josh/Nigel etc, hypothetically I have 2 groups of Zaire (in reality, as if I'd bother, I could paint stripes on my wall and have more to look at) Group 1 I bought from a reputable* source 36 months ago labelled "Zaire" Group 2 I bought from another (or the same it doesn't matter) reputable* source 20 months ago labelled "Zaire" They look different, side by side I can select 2 different groups/varients. If I am lucky I can even tell which was group 1 and which was group 2 - but now what are my fish that I spent loads of $$$ on prior to legal-imports? They are an investement needing to make a return for most people. Now, I can tell they are 2 different forms but which forms are they? Do I just continue to label them 'Zaire'? Or can I not sell them or their progeny even though I bought them in good faith from that reputable source*? Is said source going to reimburse my investment Say I narrow it down and assign Group 1 'Zaire Moba' based on them looking like the now legally imported 'Zaire Moba' but not like the other Zaire varients - is this then OK to sell them? Maybe it's best to just leave the 'Zaire' already around as 'Zaire'? Also - what's the story with breeding new 'Burundi' stock to our Aussie 'Burundi'? (There are more than enough people around who dead-set swear by their Aussie 6 bars being 100% 'Burundi'.) Is this also bad? Or is it only a problem if we then label them Burundi instead of generic 6 bars? Since we assume generic 6 bars are probably Burundi-X anyway? I am really trying to not be too argumentative. I can see both sides clearly, but for the 'idealists' have you considered a solution that the 'realists' might find workable? Or are you just nay-sayers with no constructive input on the problems that we (I probably shouldn't say 'we' - since I'm never going to directly care what happens to frontosa) will almost certainly face (probably not right now, but next generation from imports) ??? * DISCLAIMER: IMO and I am sure in the opinion of the forum administrators and staff; No "reputable source" knowingly sells illegally imported frontosa... : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted October 5, 2005 Author Share Posted October 5, 2005 Thats a bit of a ramble there Ducky but I sort of get the idea on what your trying to say. As far as I am concerned I hope that the new imports dont get mixed with the ones of unknown location that where smuggled in. Thats what I wish and hope. As for the Burundi that are here I would hope that people put either some wild caught or imported tank breed with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Ducksta That hurt my eyes. I agree with you totally. I only know what I know about these guys from what my friend has explained. He has done the reaseach and he knows the difference and I am hoping the the people who coughed up the big dollars for their illegals also have done their home work. As for the burundi I dont know. I dont believe they are crossed. I believe they are over bred and hopefully some new blood will help that problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 At least they have straight bars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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