Cichlid Buffers

[Nigel]

There is another observation you may be interested in when you add buffers to a tank with a reactive substrate the KH fluctuates. I know this because this happened to tank of mine years ago it had shell grit and I added a carbonate hardness generator and could not stabilize the KH. So I took the shell grit out and the tank stabilized.

[anchar]

My tanks are always around 8.4 (combination of local water and buffering substrate/decor). I also don't use additives (too costly for the amount of tanks I have plus I've never noticed any benefits). However I do know that brevis eat it and die if you don't pre-dissolve it

Andrea

[Nigel]

I would like all those people that have shell grit coral sand or any other reactive substrate in there tanks to do a carbonate hardness test. When they have done this I would be interested in the reading they get. I don't mean a PH test.

[YeW]

Nigel -

I'll try and supply you and the other forum members with a series of ph & kH figures from my own aquariums. It's worth noting though that the whole point of a buffering substrate is that there is a reservoir of carbonates in the tank - when solubilised carbonates netrualise organic acids more solubilise from the substrate. I agree with Ash in that the substrate will need replacing (eventually) as it does dissolve.

[Nigel]

I should add that the rate a reactive substrate degrades is affected by the stock load of a tank the heavier the stock load the quicker it will coat. It will be interesting to see some readings. I will tell you what mine are.

Malawi: KH 6 dKH

Tanganyika: 16 dKH

PH I don't know I never test for it

[Caesar]

I have a mixture of coral/marble substrate. I use this in all my tanks. I currently have 4 x tanks banked with sump and 2 stand alone tanks. After completing ph/kh tests I came back with the following results:

* PH in all tanks was 7.8

* KH in all tanks on 4 banked tanks was 3

* KH on stand alone tanks was 5.

My understanding for optimal conditions for cichlids was to be around 11. That is why I asked should I try buffers.

[midnightexpress]

My understanding for optimal conditions for cichlids was to be around 11. That is why I asked should I try buffers. 

←

caesar

ask yourself

1- am i losing fish?

2- are they not breeding?

3- don't they have nice color?

4- do they look sick?

if the answer to these are "no", why change.

if you play around with Ph,KH,GH,and you don't know what your playing around

with you will kill your fish.

all the people on this side of the fence is saying is that they are not needed,but

if you want and you got the money to spend, go ahead.

[Nigel]

I think a better reply might have been if you intend to change the chemistry of your tanks do it slowly. I think you will kill your fish is a bit harsh but I agree if it ain't broken why fix it.

[midnightexpress]

if you play around with Ph,KH,GH,and you don't know what your playing around

with you will kill your fish.

←

Nigel

as i said "if you don't know what your playing around with"

[YeW]

Hi -

I think a better reply might have been if you intend to change the chemistry of your tanks do it slowly.

Here here. Nigel and I agree at last. YAY!

Your pH & kH are fine for virtually all malawi cichlids. If you want to think about some tricky tangs you MAY want to consider buffers. If I was keeping something like Tropheus (which get bloat when you look at them sideways or when they hear any music from the Baroque period) it would be something I would think about. For all lamprologines & Cyphotilapia don't bother.

[Canberra Alex]

-Caesar

my water comes from the same catchment as yours and with only shell grit and coral sand my Kh is 12.

I only use the salts when adding water for water changes so i don't get huge swings (water out of the tap comes out at around 4-5kh) and i only use 1/4 of the recommended dose rate.

Also try adding some alkaline substrate into your filters this also helps

HTH

Alex

[Nigel]

Here here. Nigel and I agree at last. YAY!

David I can guarantee this will not happen a great deal so make the best of it.

[rosco]

Hi there,

I must be one of the slackest ones around as I only add cichlids salts and prime into my tanks for both tangs and malawi's. My water changes consists of draining the water into the garden (a known amount), adding a mixture of prime and salts (seachem cichlid and espon salts) into the target tank (this is measured correctly) and filling it up slowly straight from the hose. Some of my smaller tanks I put the water straight from the hose into a 20 litre bucket first. As substrate goes I have a mixture of white sand, marble chip and coral sand.Eventually I will remove all the sand and replace with marble chip.

BUT in saying that i don't keep tricky or more tempamental tangs like tropheus, if I did I would pay a lot more attention to what buffers I add and tank parameters. I have also spent a fair bit of time working out and streamlining my methods (and loses). Now I do what works for me, it all depends on what you fish are used to.

When I do get new fish I spend a long period of time adjusting them to their new conditions even if it means I have 2 hours sleep when I come back from a NSWSC meeting .

I would not make any sudden changes as everyone has suggested as this will cause problems. Unless your fish has specific needs I reckon just try to every fish in similar water and as nigel says "if it ain't broke don't fix it" IMHO

cheers

rosco

BTW it looks like I am agreeing with everyone too but I am an agreeable type of guy.

[oakes]

hi,

in all these posts the only reference i noticed was to Seachem salts.

I use Aquasonic Rift Lake Conditioner and find it does a reasonable job of increasing the hardness (i'm on tank water) and pH at a much lesser cost. It maintains pH at around 8.0.

I don't know what the fish think of it, and i'm not heavily into breeding or keeping finicky species.

I mainly use it cause i'm on tank water and i don't like using shell grit as a substrate. I prefer to use a medium black gravel for its appearance and ease of maintenance. Besides, in the past i found little bits of shell grit would get into my filters and also increase the risk of scratches on the inside of the glass.

anyway that's my 2 bob's worth!

cheers

Glenn

[Josh]

Science applies to everything - the fish "world" isnt exempt. To draw good conclusions you need to have information which allows you to make those conclusions. Nigel and the other "pro-buffer" movement don't have that information. All the comments in this thread which state "buffers give me larger spawns, better colour etc" are not well founded and I can suggest a number of other reasons to which we may attribute this "improvement" if it exists at all.

Dave

Yes science does apply to everything

But does it always have to be black and white?

Personal expericence in the fish keeping world is one of the biggest influences in what I do with my fish, including the use of the buffers.

Nigel and the other "pro-buffer" movement's experiences, to me, contribute alot to to the way my fish are kept. You are talking about people who have kept alot of different cichlids over the years and you are saying there opinions cant be used to form a judgement because they dont have a scientific test to back it up? Sounds a little harsh to dispell these people because they dont have to degrees.

If I was keeping something like Tropheus (which get bloat when you look at them sideways or when they hear any music from the Baroque period) it would be something I would think about.

Your are telling people not to use this stuff because theres no evidence of them working but then say you would use them on finicky species? If they arent benficial to ordinary fish why would they work on the hard to keep stuff. But if theres no sceintific data to support their use, then why use them? Or would you be using them because its the accepted norm when keeping these fish?

[Ash]

He isn't saying buffering isn't benificial - just that certian methods are more economical.

Do you put 98RON premium in a 120Y? You can & it's probably better, but why bother?

[Josh]

Ash

Do you put 98RON premium in a 120Y?

No you wouldn't add the datsun 120y runs on leaded fuel

Dave has clearly stated that buffering substrate is as good as chemical buffers but then say's he would use the chemical buffers on hard to keep fish?

If shell grit is enough then why change?

[Ash]

They also have alloy heads with hardened valve seats stock & ran unleaded in Japan from '75 or whenever they switched, plus leaded isn't available for sale anymore so your choices are unleaded, premium or 98. Which do you use!?!?!

I thought Dave was more refering to using the salts with the finniky fish along with either buffering method

[BaZ]

I think Ash has the right idea.

There are better fuels than standard unleaded, but using these better fuels in most cars might not be necessary.

However there are some cars out there (the tropheus of the auto world) which need a certain fuel type to run to their best potential.

I think this is what he is saying

[Ash]

BaZ gets me.

For the record, I have a Datsun & plan to run it on 98 - but that's the superchargers fault

[YeW]

Josh / Others -

I am saying is I don't know if buffers are beneficial, compared to buffering substrate. I certainly have no evidence to suggest they are any better. Science applies to everything and it is black or white or "I don't know". If you want to say you are sure something works better than X - you need to be sure. I'm not "dispelling" anyone because they don't have a degree - this is common sense not biochemistry:

You cannot make conclusions about a comparison between two methods if you havent compared the two methods in a reasonable fashion

About finnickity species: Perhaps the bufers would help, perhaps it would help if you did 16 x 0.5% weekly water changes... I don't know. If you read my posts you'll see I said they MAY be helpful. These species are tricky for a reason - perhaps they need trace minerals, perhaps they need cleaner water...??? Fill in the blanks.

What I am saying (repeatedly) is that for 95% of fish from Lk. Malawi and Tanganyika you can have good sucess, great colour and long healthy lifespans without ever opening a jar of buffer or salt.

[Josh]

If I trully loved my 120y and cared about its well being then the best fuel would be the go. I spend about $80 a year on fuel. My Accent always gets premium, I only drive abot 1000km a year in it so it the best.

Does that answer your question now Ash?

[kemst]

As A scientist I agree with Yew that Science is black or white or "dunno". If it were not then would not be scientific.

The whole point of a scientific study is to limit variables to confirm or disprove a point. It should always result in a precise and transparent result. Otherwise it is not good science.

This is certainly not the most fun or sexy way of looking at things but IMHO that is why it is often given a bad name as boring and difficult (often well deserved)

Also it should not be influenced by emotion, something *very* hard to do if you are not used to doing it. I believe this is what you learn when doing research in science. Basically, if you let emotion influence you, you will probably have compromised results. There is nothing worse than spending 2 years doing something only having to write a detailed explination why you were wrong (believe me )

This has nothing to do with having a degree - but doing research in a scientific descipline soon lets you know that you that it is a harsh and uncompromising mistress if done right. This is why not everyone can be a scientist (than goodness...could you imagine )

That said..if you find something that works for you then maybe it doesn't need explaining. Sometimes you can explain something to death.

[anchar]

which get bloat when you look at them sideways or when they hear any music from the Baroque period

who doesn't ...all that harpsicord!

Andrea

[midnightexpress]

kemst

in that case:

will not people just use it because x,y,z is using it so if they are using this,

we must use it as well or we will not have the same success

so on and so on.