Fish dead in arrival/transport: Who's fault?

[justinfox]

Hi all,

I bought a pair on convicts and a texas cichlid yesterday to go into a tank which already had 2 bristlenoses.

I floated my bags for 15 minutes as usual, let a little water in to the bags, then left the bags for another 10 then I let the fish go. The convicts were fine and instantly started checking out the place, they're still fine this morning doing all their usual behavioural playing and cleaning up the little pot I have in the tank too. The texas however is dead.

I noticed it swimming at the top-ish as soon as we put him in, he was breathing hard so it looks like the water parameters were too different to his tank at the shop.

I was wondering who's fault this is? I bought a fish from a shop, took it home, put it in the tank and it died. I did all the right things by floating the bags, the water in my tank is great as it comes from my already stable 6ft tank (has been running for 2 years now no problems). I have been keeping fish (all sorts) since 1999 so I'm not a newbie to this hobby.

So is this all my fault? Would you go back to the fish store to tell them what happened? Would you expect them to give you another fish? Would the texas just die again?! LOL! Sorry for all the questions, but any ideas/thoughts would be appreciated.

[Eaglebarret]

Seen as it died instantly, id say u are entitled to a new fish, but they will prob want a water sample from your tank, to try and work out what went wrong.

[Burek]

Too me it looks like the parameters are different to what he was used to be in, also it might be because of lack of air hes gasping like that.

Sorry about your loss

Daniel

[Ged]

You have followed the normal procedures for introducing the fish. Have you checked the water parameters and if so what are they?

Ged

[gingerbeer]

I bought a fish home last week. My procedure was to check ph & temperature, mix half and halfwater, make sure no probs release. (it was my wifes fish - tried to minimise risk) However I didn't check hardness.

The point I make is what is proper procedure. If I had bought convicts I would have just opened the bag and threw them straight in.

If I were in your positiion I would check my water parameters first, then go and talk to the shop (take a sample for them to test). I wouldn't expect them to replace the fish, but if they replace the fish good on them and name them here for great service.

Just what I reckon

Steve

[steve24cro]

Im not sure whos fault it is, however when i bring fish home, i throw them straight in the tank, and they live. I never measure my waters PH or any parameters at all, i think its a waste of time. Fish adapt really well to water that is similiar i guess to the water they were in the fish shop

So far have had no dead fish in 2 years of fish keeping, never owned a test kit of any kind. I think a well oxygenated tank with moving water and sufficient good bacteria should house almost any healthy fish within reason of course.

[Ash]

geez, for a tex to die like that it'd have to be screwed up before release

I've found all my CA's are just as indestructable as cons

Unless you have super weird water perameters, like over a point PH diff - even then with adding water to the bag & the cons seemingly unaffected its sus IMO.

[jebe]

always Scrutinize the fish you are buying very carefully before buying don’t ever buy fish that are in with other sick fish or even fish that to you don’t look right not swimming around etc, not saying you didn’t but there are usually signs of stress on fish before they snuff it

hope you get a new fish

[anchar]

As a former manager at an LFS, my answer to you is this. Take the fish back to the store (within 24 hrs of purchase) as proof of death. Also take a sample of water with you and explain the procedure you followed prior to (how long was it in the bag etc.) and after release. If the LFS can't fault you, they should replace the fish. Ask them to test the water in the tank from which it came...sounds to me like there was a very big difference in water parameters.

Andrea

[justinfox]

Thanks for the advice peoples. The convicts are doing just great and already love the little pot I have in there for them.

As I mentioned I've been keeping fish for a long time and had a fair share of losses in the very beginning but have not been able to kill anything for the past few years!!!

I'm still confused as to why the Texas died as I know they're a very hardy fish (have kept them in the past).

I'll definitely be dropping into the shop again with my water so they can check it for me (I can check it too, but best to let them check it). Thanks again.

[Sarah]

i have a store near me that has a policy that replaces fish if it dies within 24 hours of purchase but i have never seen a policy like this in any other store, good luck though , i bought a pleco from another store recently and got it home to discover it was riddled with ick, alas i didnt see it up close and it was almost impossible to tell once he had placed it in my bucket, i treated it to but no avail.

[teflon]

Also dont be affraid to ask them to feed the fish in front of you so you know they are healthy if everything else checks out

hope you get some closure

Adam

[wildcaught]

Hi

I have dealt with this situation before except I am the breeder.

Buyer complaints that the fish he brought off me all died over night. Ok..but how do you explain my other fish (same batch) in the same tank? All healthy...swimming and eating..

As a breeder, I dont want to see any unhappy customer and hence offer him FREE the same no. fish. Guess what? No deaths this time

I think the fault leans more towards the buyer than the LFS/breeder.

It all depends on your LFS

Good luck!

My 2cents

[jebe]

id say more like 50/50 lol

[edward]

Hard to say who's fault it is.

The fish may have been sick when you bought it.

Your tank might have had wrong parameters compared to the LFS.

And many other possible reasons.

I would take it back ASAP with a sample of water from your tank like others have suggested.

Let us know how you go.

[CThompson]

If the fish was sick when you bought it, then the shop holds some responsibility (good luck getting an admission). If the fish died the day after you purchased it, and it was sick, it must have looked really, really bad in the shop’s tank for it to be so close to death to die the next day.

However, you say you are experienced, if so, did you buy a sick fish? If it had a problem, you would have seen it, yes? I would take it, that you bought it because the fish looked good, if that’s the case, the fish was okay, and the problem lies at your end of the thing.

You say you’ve had fish for six years, I’ve had them for thirty, and I’m still learning – it’s an information hobby, and you never stop learning.

The best way to acclimatise fish is with the drip method, put the fish still in the bag, in an open bucket, and use and airline hose with an inline tap to regulate water being siphoned in. Fill the bag a couple of times, on the last half bag full, turn the tap all the way up to make sure the temp is adjusted too (as the temp may drop a bit if the drip is too slow). Make sure the bucket is sitting on something that won’t transfer the cold from the floor to the fish water.

You got to remember, the floating bag way, when you put some water in, if your water is different from the bag water, say one is 7 the bag 7.5 (still close?), the bag water is actually harder by a factor or fifty. So sloshing water in, may take it from 7.5 to 7.4 (what ever), it has reduced the hardness by a factor of ten in one fell swoop. Using the drip method, all water parameters (even ones we as an individual or as a hobby don’t know about) are corrected gradually (as fast as the drip/flow is adjusted), and evenly.

Certainly go back and inform the shop of your loss, but don’t go back expecting the shop to owe you something, after all, if you didn’t buy the fish and it was still in their tanks, it probably would still be alive (remembering it must have looked okay for you to buy it).

Hope that helps,

Craig

[danpri]

Fish can turn up pretty tired from wholesalers too, if the fish has arrived the day before and then it's sold it can still be stressed from transport or even be sick when it arrived from the wholesalers.

[Bijengum]

Sounds like pH shock to me. Craig is spot on. If you don't test the parameters first the drip method is the best.

Fish can turn up pretty tired from wholesalers too, if the fish has arrived the day before and then it's sold it can still be stressed from transport or even be sick when it arrived from the wholesalers.

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[BlakeyBoyR]

If you're an experienced fish keeper, have you examined the body of the fish? Are there any abnormalities? Have you tested your own water?

Let's pretend that you can prove that the LFS did sell you a sick fish, what then? I dont think there is anything you can do to compel them to replace or refund.

I know a few places that give health guarantees, a place I used to work at had a conditional 2 weeks health guarantee, however that was of course built into the price. However these places are few and far between.

If the LFS owner/manager is a decent person, they may be 100% cool with replacing the fish, afterall it makes more business sense to replace a $15 fish and keep your business than **ss you off and lose it for good.

I suggest getting your facts straight, knowing your water conditions etc. before approaching the LFS. If you havent already done it I'd also freeze the fish body. When you do go into the LFS, take at least 50ml of your water, as most tests require 5-10mL to carry out, as well as the dead fish, and see what they say.

Just remember to be polite and understanding (as Im sure you would be anyway), they dont have to give you your money back at all, but hopefully they will see the benefit of replacing the fish and perhaps having you say on the forum "Gee XXXXX LFS was so understanding and easy to deal with, the replaced my fish no problems". Its always good to hear about LFS doing the right thing by the hobbyist

[graceless]

what if they're dead in the bag before you even get home?

i'm talking wholesale situation - where they've been in transit for say 12 hours from when they leave the wholesaler to the time they get to your house.

[CThompson]

what if they're dead in the bag before you even get home?

i'm talking wholesale situation - where they've been in transit for say 12 hours from when they leave the wholesaler to the time they get to your house.

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It's my understanding that a retail shop will not pay for DOAs.

Craig

[ViS]

Grace, that happened to me a few weeks ago. I know who the wholesaler is, but I bought the fish through another person (basically a reseller). I bought 20 clown loaches (among other things). The loaches were suffering the first stages of whitespot in the bag, largely due to the fact that the truck was 10 hours late getting to us (was supposed to be 9am, but didn't turn up until after dinner)., so the loaches were most likely stressed due to too long in a cold bumpy truck ride (plus all 20 loaches were in a single bag).

I have UV filters running on all my tanks, so I put them in a quarantine tank with a UV on it and hoped they'd pull through. Nope. All dead from ich within 3 days.

There were also a few other dead fish in bags on arrival.

Now I didn't contact the reseller until after the loaches had all died (3 days later) and by that time, he had already told the wholesaler he was generally happy with the shipment, apart from the few dead arrivals.

Luckily I know who the wholesaler is (and is a member of this forum) so I contacted them directly. I was told to deal with the reseller as he had already said most of the fish arrived ok.

I'm annoyed because I regard the wholesaler as a good hobbyist, and feel I'm being palmed off. Obviously having been in the hobby a while and having a lot of contacts around the place, I know where fish are coming from, so I don't see the problem in contacting a supplier directly if I know the fish came from them.

If my problem doesn't get resolved appropriately, there might be some upset people around the forum

[Mazimbwe]

I do not see what the wholesaler has to do with the problem ViS. If you had bought the loaches from them, direct, it might be their problem but your "deal" involved someone else.

As for the Thread-topic;

If it dies in your tank...you killed it. If it dies in the Bag...they killed it.

If it was sick and you bought it anyway...your fault. If you didn't look and bought it anyway...your fault.

Simple really.

[ViS]

The reason it is the wholesalers problem is that the reseller with who I dealt with had nothing to do with the care of my fish. The wholesalers either didn't take appropriate care when selecting or bagging the fish, or they chose an incomptent courier. The fish came off the truck and straight to my house.

I am doing as the wholesaler wishes and am going through the reseller.

You are correct though, the wholesaler doesn't HAVE to deal with me, but basic decency would suggest they'd do all they can to keep a future customer (and avoid losing many future customers). So far it doesn't seem like they give a crap.

[Mazimbwe]

Do I understand you correctly ViS? Are you threatening the wholesaler, because you circumvented them and went thru someone else to buy the wholesalers fish and were then unhappy about the way they arrived?

I do not see that you have a case at all...let alone a case to threaten their business based on your poor decision. If you know the wholesaler why not deal with them direct...would save all this BS with the Middle-Man that way at least.