gianniz Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 I have 2 female albino bristlenose that fat and ready to breed but i have no girls.. If I put them with normal bristlenose would they spawn together? Also if so will it be half normal and half albino fry?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamos Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 You will get a proportion of the fry being albino! Yes they will spwan, the albino bn is australia are a albino form of our common so they are the same fish! Some people say that you will get a better hatch rate if you breed a common and an albino! jamos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
az1 Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Hi Gainniz They will breed immediately!!!! I have done this and got a batch of normal BN. You will always only get normals unless the male bn had a recessive albino gene (which is unlikely) A portion of the BN offspring will have a recessive albino gene and if these bn are then bred back together you will arrive back at albino bn. So by this method you can have full albino bn in two generations. Cheers Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamsherman Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Here is a great breakdown of the albino genes both full and recessive written by Ducksta for a similar question not very long ago. Mike, lets assume albinism is controlled by a simple recessive (all the evidence in most species suggests this) This means there are 2 possible genes ALBINO/NORMAL. And each animal carries 1 pair of genes to command the trait (inherits 1 from mum and 1 from dad.) To get albino offspring you need two parents carrying the albino gene. These will look like normal's if they carry one of each gene (split A/N). OR they may themselves be albino if they carry a pair of albino gene. ONLY ANIMALS INHERITING THE ALBINO GENE ON BOTH SIDES WILL SHOW ALBINO. OK so lets assume: both parents are albino (thats 4 albino genes)- 100% albino fry 1 albino parent, 1 split A/N (thats 3 albino genes)- ~50% albino fry - ~50% split A/N 2 split A/N parents (thats 2 albino genes)- ~25% albino fry,~50% split A/N, ~25% normals 1 normal parent, 1 albino parent -100% split A/N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckmeister Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 I dont know much about catties but have the albino's got a L number??. From my understanding they are new to the country. My other understanding is that common bristlenose are unclassified and more than likely crosses.What I'm getting at is will they be considered a hybrid if bred?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 First read this post This one here Then take Chuck's advice and don't do it. Unless you are absolutely certain that your 'normal' is exactly the same species as the albino. Theoretically, you would get all splits. But that is only true if they are the same species. If not, crazy things happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianniz Posted March 1, 2005 Author Share Posted March 1, 2005 well i might actually try this since i have no albino male Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffin Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 I say go ahead and do it - you will be outcrossing and ultimately improving the gene pool of your albino BN's. A summary: If you breed your albinos with a normal 1. all fry will look normal 2. all fry will have one "albino" gene and one "normal" gene 3. those fry if bred together should give you roughly 25% albino, 50% carrying one albino gene (but looking normal) 25% completely normal. However if there other factors e.g. maybe albino eggs don't hatch as well or something (just hypothetically) you might not get as many albinos as 25%. It could work the other way round too - if albinos have some advantage in the fertility/hatching etc. department you might get more than 25%. Don't know till you try! 4. I don't think there's any way to tell "carriers" of the albino gene from those that don't carry it. 5. if you bred males from the fry back to their albino mums you should get more like 50% albino fry. But you'd also doing stronger inbreeding than if you bred siblings together, so take that into account. Cheers, Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emp1re Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 I have 2 female albino bristlenose that fat and ready to breed but i have no girls.. you need a male then ah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianniz Posted March 1, 2005 Author Share Posted March 1, 2005 oops i have no BOYS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boots n all Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 l can swap a male for a female but you need to get back to me quick or the male will miss his ride to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Curious why you'd be willing to breed an albino with a normal? If I had albino's I'd protect the genetics and never cross them. In my opinion just go with Boots' offer... Cheers Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Richard the wrost thing we can do with albinos is to never out cross them. to get large numbers of albinos you NEED to outcross with normal coloured fish to keep the line strong. it only means one cross back with the young and you have albinos again. thing is these albinos will be far stronger than the original ones you had, cos there is far more diversity in their genetics. at some stage it is essential that people outcross their albinos to standard bristlenose so that we keep a robust line of albinos. the same is true for any simple mendelian genetic trait that you are trying to keep a strong line of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 Gav, I agree to a point. Except I will ask: What species are the albino BN we have in the country? What species are our common BN? I thought the consensus was they were one of those acceptable/been around too long hybrids... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 stop splitting hairs boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrseby Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 ONYA gav !! whats with the hair fetishhhhhhhhhh If I had albino's I'd protect the genetics This is a bit funny ..and also very wrong (sorry richard) The albino gene is a recessive gene and should actually be frowned upon .. Albino animals get sicker/die younger and have problems with the sun etc It’s actually a bad thing ...But we like it because it looks diff its rare etc. And hence why in nature it’s not that common. So to outcross is the best thing to try and give these fish a better genetic make-up Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViS Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 I just went and had a long look at both my albino and Regular BN, and if I had to place a bet, I'd bet on the fact that they are indeed the same species. There is not one physical characteristic I can pick between the two colours (except for the colour ) If anyone has a foolproof way of determining 100% whether they are the same species, I'd like to hear it. Another thing, they breed so proficiently (regular BN), I doubt we've had more than a couple of imports since the beginning. Would that be right? I can't see how they'd be a mix of pleco types. I've also read in several places that plecos don't hybridise in the wild or captivity (or if they do, it is extremely rare). If this is the case, there is not much chance that we have hybrid BN here, even if there was more than one original species imported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 OK, this is where I put my hand up (love that emoticon) and admit that my knowledge of genetics is not that great. So thanks folks for taking to the time to straighten me out I was the guy in high school who sat in the back of the class throwing spit balls on the roof. Cheers Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckmeister Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 I think the attitude towards the hybrid idea is a little looser in this forum than what it should be. I'll mention flowerhorn and red parrot just to get the blood going The question is what are the local bristlenose and what are the albino. Talking about genetics is almost pointless at this early stage as they are brand new and who's to say that this has not already been done before they got here with the proper L numbered catfish (just a thought). Are there any obvious genetic faults with the fish so far?? Are the batches of fry throwing out deformities already??? I remember Anita saying Quite a while ago that the bristlenose in Perth look different to the ones in her tank but I know these Perth bristlenose are getting shipped by the thousands every month. Everyone I have spoken to about these fish (common Bristlenose) claim them to be a cross(nationwide). With a general opinion like that, do you really want to cross them back with hybrid fish already and lets face it, this is for the intent of breeding and selling more than anything. I think the forums should be the harshest critics when something like this is discussed solely because of the unanswered questions that are here and that the forums can and should try to be in the first line of fire when it comes to species preservation. My suggestion is to not breed these back until you know what you are breeding with. Thats my bit...I'll just butt out now and leave the rest to the catfish pro's Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViS Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 My suggestion is to not breed these back until you know what you are breeding with. Exactly. As I asked just before, can anyone who has both types see if they can pick any physical differences? Apart from dicing them up or taking a dna swab from both, physical differences are the only way I see to tell whether they are the same species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianniz Posted March 3, 2005 Author Share Posted March 3, 2005 i know we have more than 1 species of bristlenose.. even in my tank now. I see 2 different type of male in my breeding tank.. Some males only have 3-6 bristles while others smaller in size has 20odd bristles.. And not just that you can see the size difference and slight difference in head shapes. However let me put it this way. as all humans look different could it be that genetics made these bristlenose different as well? possibly they are from same anchestry but along the way things went differently. Also in regards to hybridisation well I don't know whether breeding bristle from 1 type another is that terribly bad. Remember peppermints don't cross with bristlenose even if you leave them long enough they don't (i tried this!!!) Albino and Normal cross even though they look completely different. Why? cause fish know themselves better than us. So What I am trying to say is if it happens its because fish chose to do it not because we made them to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViS Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 You can't use bristles as a guide. You can have brothers from the same spawn show varying numbers and size of bristles. It's a guide to dominance, not genetics, as far as I'm aware. The physical differences I'm talking about is body shape, fins and patterns. Also in regards to hybridisation well I don't know whether breeding bristle from 1 type another is that terribly bad If it's determined that they are different species, then it is "terribly bad" to breed them together, as you'll destroy the purity of the albino line (and the normal BN line if it is indeed still pure). I'm still one of the biggest campaigners for anti hybridisation, but I'd be happy to see the albinos be proven to be the same species as what is already here. I might even outcross the ones I have if that ever turns out to be the case. Just my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Remember peppermints don't cross with bristlenose even if you leave them long enough they don't (i tried this!!!) Hey gianniz, did your peppermints spawn alongside the normals? Curious because I've always thought they'd cross... Albino and Normal cross even though they look completely different. Why? cause fish know themselves better than us. Your point may be correct, but that line of thinking obviously can't apply as a blanket statement because many other fish (many species of cichlids) would and do cross given the chance. Cheers Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianniz Posted March 5, 2005 Author Share Posted March 5, 2005 I kept normal breeding bristlenose and peppermints together for over a year and not once did i see them spawn together or frys that showed any sign of hybridisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett4Perth Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 I think there are two seperate issues here that are getting blurred. 1) Species maintenance - I am 100% for species and even sub-species/location maintenance. This is a really difficult issue and one that doesn't get enough attention. 2) Hybrids/sports - I lump these two together as once you deviate from the "norm" I don't think it matters much. Albino bristlenose are presumably sports, as such to suggest species preservation is obviously nonsense, there are no natural populations of these fish. So what are we trying to prevent by avoiding cross breeding with "normal" bristlenose? Neither population represents the "natural" population, think of it like breeding two different types of dogs ... is this going to affect the few remaining "wild" dog populations. I don't think anyone believes we have a pure species of common bristlenose in Australia, so what are we trying to save?? Just to get you thinking Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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