If I mix Albino with Normal

[Ducksta]

so what are we trying to save??

My thinking was the purity of the albino bristleys. I have no idea whether they are a pure species, but all I was asking is what they are.

[Chuckmeister]

That was my point exactly. The common bristlenose are not the issue. It is the albino that is in question. Whether or not they survive in the wild is also not relevant. I have albino Dimidiochromis compressiceps. Whether you call them something else is up to you but they are still Dimi comps with an albino gene and I wouldn't be crossing them with an electric yellow just because they are albino. The question is still what are the albino bristlenose and are they they same species of fish??

I'm sorry Brett, but the more I read the second part of your post the less sence it makes

[Mazimbwe]

hmmm...gotta say I am suprised this Thread is still open/here.

The idea of crossing a fish that you are sure of, Albino BN, with a suspected mixed-fish, normal BN, is unthinkable.

If you are less than 99.999% sure about the species being exactly the same...the idea should not even be contemplated.

Albino BN's are selling for as little as $45 here, retail, so there is no reason you can not source more Albino BN's in order to get a male to start breeding.

With species of Cichlid, like Electric Blues, the damage has been done and there is no way to eradicate the cross and start from fresh blood...same with the Albino BN's. If you are not SURE do not risk it.

Short of a Coring, or a DNA sample from both varients, you will not be sure just from looking at physical traits either IMO. And why risk it anyway?

[gianniz]

i guess it comes down to 2 reasons

1. Some people like fish as a hobby this doesn't only mean keeping, breeding then selling. Others like myself like to get involved in more indept research such as will they cross? Why won't they cross. If crossed what happens etc. People have rights to experiment. Without experiments then there is absolutely no reason for this hobby to exists. Its the joy of new challenge new discovery that I like and I am sorry to say but I don't think anyone should be deprived of this side of the hobby.

2. I am not mixing 2 things thats different. From external looks and behaviour it looks like they are an identicle fish. They also breed together that shows they are compatible. (remember peppermints will not cross with normals!). Again its only an experiment.

PS DNA test on a fish? you must be kidding right?

PPS I am not trying to flame here but just to say that this hobby has many levels

[Chuckmeister]

gianniz, I hope I'm not sounding like I'm intentionally being an buM...

But on your first point.... many fish cross breed. They dont care what the other fish is...they have an instict to breed and do it. Why do you think there are so many hybrid fish around. Why do you think that the anti hybrid policy is so strong across the forums. Its because people have to be vigilant against these things happening. Your arguement about experimenting is valid. I guess you could cross this fish with other fish, but I dont see the point if at the end of the day you breed hybrids. Like I've said, It is a common opinion that the common bristlenose IS a CROSS which would indicate that most people would think that two DIFFERENT species of bristlenose have been bred and crossed in the past.

On your second point, I respectfully disagree. The only way these fish should be bred together is when the ID of the common bristlenose is confirmed. I could say the same thing and throw some in with my colony of orange spots and say they look the same knowing that I have crossed two species of fish and produced a 'legitimate' albino orange spot. I could also do so under the guise of an experiment too.

[Gav]

the thing for gianniz is this though. having now stated on a public forum that he is actively trying to cross breed his catfish (more concerned with the fact he tried to cross peppers and commons). who in thier right mind would buy any fish off him???? he owns all these rare and unusual types of fish which he paid good money for, but if he ever does get fry who would believe they were pure? I wonder if he can cross his zebras with anything......

[Mazimbwe]

Others like myself like to get involved in more indept research such as will they cross? Why won't they cross. If crossed what happens etc. People have rights to experiment. Without experiments then there is absolutely no reason for this hobby to exists. Its the joy of new challenge new discovery that I like and I am sorry to say but I don't think anyone should be deprived of this side of the hobby.

No way.

You say you like "indept(sic) research" about if fish will cross and what happens after they do. I can tell you what happens...you produce hybrids.

If you can not even determine that the common BN is a cross, or if the common and albino are the same fish, you should get into a course at University that allows genetic experimentation...or manipulation.

To say that the hobby, without experiments, would not exist is rediculous. FLowerHorn and Red Parrots would not exist without experiments...but the idea of the hobby, as far as I am concerned, is to house/keep/breed Cichlids, rather than creating monsters.

If you wanna experiment and play Frankenstein that is kewl...but re-assure everyone that you will destroy any & all offspring that you are not keeping for your display, please

I am not mixing 2 things thats different. From external looks and behaviour it looks like they are an identicle fish. They also breed together that shows they are compatible. (remember peppermints will not cross with normals!). Again its only an experiment.

How do you know they are not different?? It is your belief that they are but that is far from emperical-evidence and no way to conduct experiments...that is guess-work not science.

Yellows will breed with saulosi in a tank but that does not mean they are "Compatible"...it just means that they are ready to breed in a confined space.

I totally agree with Gav. Anyone buying fish from someone who feels the hobby is about experimentation needs their head looked at for a long time.

I am not trying to flame here but just to say that this hobby has many levels

...look, if you wanna be a scientist go to Uni and get a degree. Do not mess up my hobby anymore than others, with your thinking, have already done.

I still can not believe that you are saying this.

edit: spelling

[gianniz]

yeah but peppermint and normal don't cross so i am assuming peppermint and albino won't cross either (most probably same with albino and orangespot)

I guess cichlids do cross easily but seems like ancistrus are bit more educated then cichlids

[YeW]

Ok:

I'm with Griffin and Andy on this. If they arent bred back to "normal" bristlenose we are likely in the not to distant future to lose the strain (ala P. nigripinnis / D. compressiceps albinos).

Yes, there's a risk they are different species (in which case hybrids may or MAY NOT be fertile). Also - the albinos may well be a mixture of species? Who knows. If anyone would like to donate to me two bristlenoses one albino and one "normal" - dead in alcohol - I'm happy to do scale & fin ray counts and some tooth work etc under a disecting microscope at work.

My personal view is that the gain (ie: robust healthy fish) outweights the small potential risk. Its a similar problem to the maintanence of other "possible" hybrids in Australia (such as the fish we call "red devils").

The risk of the hybridisation being "spread" to other fish is, in this case, minimal (as it is with angels and discus) as hybrids are limited to closely related fish. (For example the problem is unlikely to affect other locariids.

[Chuckmeister]

Dave, these things are being bred in there thousands. Theres two hundred just in my LFS. As far as I can tell they breed as proficient as any bristlenose. The risk to losing these fish are next to zero... unless they All, all of a sudden die.

Edit - also why compare to other fish eg red devils. These fish were crossed when the classifications on fish were almost non existant. Times have changed and fish now require to be ID'ed to maintain what the actual fish are. Dave if you want to do the ray count thing by all means... I'm not argueing for or against, I'm agueing that both the fish need to be Identified. If it can be proven that they are the same, I say go for it

[Ducksta]

Dave, I have to say I am surprised, and somewhat horrified at your stance here. You seem to be suggesting that breeding the albino's to normal's is genetically beneficial and should be done, even if in fact, all fry would be hybrids. (This may or may not be the case of course)

Yet, if Chuck was to suggest he outcrossed his albino D. comps to a D. strigatus to improve the albino gene, I am sure you would go off your nut, as I would.

I would be happy to see somebody take the initiative and get them identified correctly, and if somebody donated the fish for you to do it, that would be great. I think soon enough the value of the albino's will be such that somebody who keeps them wont be burning a hole in their pocket to donate 1 to science.

[Dark Morelia]

I have to agree with Dave on this one !

If you keep breeding albino to albino without sufficient genetic variability, you will soon be breeding an extremely weak strain and will lose them.

I cannot understand why some people think that the albino mutation is more likely to be a pure species/subspecies than wildtype BN.

Was the albino mutation imported, or did it originate through a normal BN's genes MUTATING to produce an albino ?

Just because you have a mutation of a species does not make it a different species.

I think that for the albino mutation to be as well established, and as prosperous as it is, somebody who knows their genetics has already been outcrossing them to create stronger bloodlines.

Say the albino mutation was imported, and is in fact a mutation of a pure subspecies of BN, then what are you going to do about it ? if you keep breeding them together in an effot to keep them pure, you'll most likely lose the lot. You will have a better chance of the mutation surviving and getting stronger if you outcross it to normal BN, be it simply outcrossing to wildtype, or hybridising.

You have to ask yourself wether you want to somehow attempt to save these possibly pure species albinos, or integrate them into the already supposedly hybrid Common BN, therefore having the mutation survive.

But i seriously think the decision has already been made.

Andy

DM

[ViS]

John, I don't think he meant that. I took it as saying that the albinos may already be hybrids (as may be normal BN). If that was the case, then it would not foul the species bloodline by breeding them with normal BN, as it's already been done and both species are too far gone to recover. If this is the case, then breeding them to the already strong normal line will add strength to the albino line (although from chucks comments they are pretty strong already). I myself bought 3 albinos and one died within a week so they don't seem too tough to me. Luckily the remaining pair are M/F so I can hopefully get them to breed.

The only way to know for sure is to identify whether the albinos are the same species as normal BN before anyone breeds them together.

[Ducksta]

Andy, if that's case, I am all for it, that's not how it is reading to me But I am smashed out of my mind on cold and flu pills .

DM - whats this about sub-species and mutations? As far as I can tell we are talking about breeding an imported genetic mutation (possibly pure, possibly not) of a species to another 'species' (which has been believed a hybrid for a long long while).

I cannot see the benefit of outcrossing the fish if it is only going to make them tough hybrids And DM, you are suggesting that creating more hybrids is the way to go? Or is that another drug induced hallucination on my part?

[YeW]

Duck -

I'm suggesting that if they ARE different species this is a bad thing. But we need to first establish a few things:

However (and there's lots of these).

1. To date there's no evidence that these are different species.

2. breeding albinos end on end on end... will give us (as DM rightly points out) a dead end, whether this takes a year or more, it'll happen eventually.

3. We dont even KNOW if albinos are a "pure strain". There's certainly NO evidence to suggest they are at this point. If they arent then we certainly arent making things worse by breeding them with "aquarium strain" bristlenose. Additionally the fish we are assuming to be a hybrid may simply be variation within a species (which has been effectively "line bred" for a long time). Thus, the fish we have now, the "aquarium line bristlenose" may not resemble wildlines much because it has been bred for in aquariums for yonks (and gone through more than a few genetic bottlenecks).

4. In order to get the albino itself I suspect the fish are probably quite highly inbred themselves, also, given these fish probably have come from pond lines in asia it would seem to me fair to assume they are also of questionable ancestory.

As I said - I'm more than happy to count scales, teeth & fin rays. However, I'll need a few fish (one is a pretty small sample size LOL!). Those doubters are welcome to give me dead fish in alcohol and I'll work from these.

[Ducksta]

OK Dave, my main concern is just that alot of people seem to be of the opinion we should outcross now, worry about whether we are creating hybrids later.

Personally, and maybe I am petty, I would rather see the albino's lost to the hobby in the country than outcrossed to what will produce hybrid albinos/splits. But then, if they are all hybrids to start with, I don't much care.

I think the time should be taken now, to determine if outcrossing with aquarium strain bristlenose is the right thing to do.

Maybe flowerhorns were created by people who were worried about losing Vieja sp., trimacs, devils, etc to their hobby in Asia, and they figured it would be best to keep their genetics around that way?

[YeW]

Duck -

I certainly understand your concern . Its agree its worth checking to see if this fish is another species I agree (and have offered to do some of the work! if provided with some material - I'm sure I can convince Griffin to help!).

I cant id live fish - so I'll need some dead'ens .

As you well know - the drive behind "flowerhorns" was the drive to fill ones pockets with enormous amounts of cash! This isnt comparable.

[Ducksta]

I know Dave, I'm just thinking if we start making exceptions and excuses, we start looking like hypocrites

[gianniz]

hmmm I got hammered in one of the post

Ok let me rephrase it.

when i said experiment its not only limited to this SO CALL HYBRIDISING. I meant the whole fish keeping is an experiment. To be absolutely honest I buy fish bred them once then most likely sell it and try another species. Why? my enjoyment comes from successfully breeding fish. Some fish its really easy while others (like peppermints!) I have not bred them yet.

Most people here will know I have virtually never sold any fry! Why? Soon as they are spawned and fry's wigglying they become feeders or they died because I don't really have a spare tank or interest in keeping them alive and make a business about it. Hell when i used to have cichlid tanks I used to leave the babies and let mum carry it full term and see how many babies will actually survive.

Anyway I am not here to argue with anyone as everyone on this forum has a valid point. There is no absolute right and wrong for this hobby. (Yes I don't like hybrids )

About my Zebra I only brought it so that I can have the ultimate challenging task!

PS I have found very interesting behaviour by experimenting and observing ancistrus. I might write an article about it soon

[gianniz]

One more thing.

Unfortunately I ain't the type of people who keep quite If I do something people will know

You don't have to worry about buying a fish that are possible hybrid or crosses. You will be know if its one of my experiment. Again those experimental one I will get approval by general publics before being sold off to anyone. (That is if my experiments are successful)

[Mazimbwe]

My concer stems from the lack of clarity about the fish we are discussing here.

I have no problem with the breeding of Albino BN with Common BN if they are the same species...what concerns me is that no-one, other than YeW, has said they will determine if the 2 are the same.

If it turns out they are...then woopee, but if not...then what? It is too late once the damage has been done.

Hypocracy is a bad thing and the way this has been addressed reeks of that very odour...IMO, the first response should've been YeW's. Which is why I suggested Coring of the 2 fish. The reason we have some problem Cichlids in Australia is because people were not sure about what they were putting together...before they did it.

I would hate to see the Albino BN lost to the hobby but I doubt that will happen as the price for a retail Albino BN here in Perth is down to $45ea @ 3cm...and there are more of them in the LFS than anything other than Common BN. Therefore I doubt that there is any Need to do this experiment.

However, if you wanna take YeW up on his offer(in an effort at clarity) and he determines that they are the same...then go for it and enjoy.

Just don't guess.

[griffin]

If only I had time to write all I would like to....

But anyway a few quick (yeah, right) points to add to this debate:

1. just because there are loads of albino BNs around now doesn't mean that their fertiltiy won't drop due to inbreeding later. At the moment we're still early on in the piece and people who have some of the original imports (further up the inbreeding chain) have mature fish that are capable of pumping out heaps of fry. Everyone who is buying these things seems hell bent on producing heaps themselves and the quickest way to do so is to inbreed. This will happen generation after generation. This may never affect the line of albino BN's (I can give you examples of viable lines of inbred animals - the original humble lab mouse is one). But with each successive generation of inbreeding the risk of something bad occurring in the line increases. And surprisingly, this can happen very suddenly - people in the bird world who are into colour mutations know this.

2. our original aussie strain of BN that we know and love.......no-one even knows what species it is and if you know the history of them.....well it would appear that there's a good chance that what we have now are hybrids. And if they are not hybrids then they are, as YeW suggested, a heavily line bred aquarium strain that is not likely to be very much like the wild original anyway.

The first BN's I ever bred - from fish I purchased nearly 10 years ago - were quite different to the BN's I have now, from fish I purchased about 4-5 years ago when I restarted breeding them. The first lot were significantly smaller even as breeding adults and the males had non-branching bristles. The ones I have now get huge! and the males have branching bristles, and some males have shorter bristles arranged like a mustache.

My conclusion from this is either we had in Aus. different species or strains - which would have inevitably become mixed by now thus being hybrids, or they have become heavily linebred over those years and have changed quite dramatically.

3. we should be a little careful when comparing this situation to hybridising in cichlids and drawing conclusions from it. Cichlids are a bit of a special case as most groups of cichlids we have around today are fairly recently emerged (evolution-wise). They are still evolving and different species and strains in many cases are still so closely related that hybridising and producing fertile offspring is an absolute breeze for them.

It is not so easy for loricariids (I'm not just talking BN's here -I mean any pleco species) to hybridise. They are in general a little more well established on the evolutionary track - each species has gone its seperate way far enough that it is now difficult for them to do so. There are cases of hybrids occurring (though I have not read of any yet where the hybrid fry were shown to be fertile). But these reports are still quite few and far between.

It is possible with BN's that there are many different closely related species and/or strains that could hybridise easily. I think that's highly likely. If so - I also think it's highly likely that what we have here are hybrids. The first BN's here were very difficult to convince to breed - were the originals from two or more species ? Or were they one species that started out as "difficult" but became a linebred "easy" species?

Anyway, it's late and I'm waffling. I hope what I have written makes sense.

But my point is that although I am, of course, against knowingly hybridising any species, due to the above factors (and others I don't have room here to write) I am just not convinced we should be so "precious" about BN's. To me, they're kinda in the same boat as discus, angel fish and others. You wouldn't use any of the aquarium types to do a recovery program to restock wild fish!

Cheers,

Jess

BTW - happy to help with ID'ing of deadibone fish - a second opinion perhaps? If so, ultimately it would be interesting to get samples of normal BN's of different sources/strains?

[Chuckmeister]

You know there are days when I just shake my head. My respect for this forum has been delt a blow today. I cant stand hypocracy

Maz hits the nail exactly on the head. With these fish being sought after for such a long time, to them being available for a very short time, people wanting to cross these fish over already with common bristlenose which in themselves are suspect just doesn't add up. Cross them back or not, it makes no difference to me and it would appear that minds, although unspoken, have already been made up. I'm in this hobby to do the best I can for it, not experiment nor have a passing glance at something and go she'll be right...they look the same. I'm in it for the preservation of what we have. If these get hybrized and people start whingeing about it over the years to come, I will know and state where it all started.

With all the if's and buts making up the reasons to cross these fish...how can one compete when all I'm saying is that you MUST know what you are dealing with. If there is a question mark over the albino and its ID its my opinion its better left breeding with its own kind and that way ensures that fish stays what it is.

Dave, you have taken on a large responsability....good luck with it

Oh and just on the note on all albinos being genically weak. I steadfastly disagree. people seem to lump all albinos in this box. Look at albino zebra's (cichlid) they would be one of the strongest,most agressive and prolific breeders there are. Genetically weak...I dont think so. What about albino Oscars. With my albino dimis its my belief that they are weak because they are bred in asia in asian water that is sterilized. When they hit aussie water they cant cope and die. I believe if they can get bred in local conditions that there resilience will improve. I say this to indicate that you cant paint everything with the same stick.

edit - So Jess you are saying that it would be OK to cross these albinos with my Orange Spots being just another bristlenose. I guess I'm being so steadfast because with all the new fish coming in there are also new catfish coming in as well. The orange spot is an example. To so flippantly disregard the albino and lump it in a general bag kinda annoys me.

[Dark Morelia]

I think there is a lot of confusion in this thread about what exactly is a mutation, a species, a sub-species, a hybrid, and outcrossing.

And i am not suggesting anything is the way to go, i am just shedding some light on the different outcomes, if you go different ways.

I am against breeding our normal BN with albino BNs if they are not the same pure species or sub-species.

But the thing is, nobody knows what species and or subspecies either normals or albinos are, or even if either or both are hybrid stock which is entirely possible if not downright probable.

If both are conclusively proven to be the same species, or both to be hybrid strains, then outcrossing can only do good.

BUT the bottom line is that obviously no breeding between them should take place before it is know for certain.

If i suggested before that they should be bred anyway, then that's not what i meant.

Outcrossing and Hybridisation.....

A mutation in a species doesn't make that mutation a different species, therefore if you breed an albino of a species to a wildtype of the same species, it's not hybridising, but outcrossing (Which is a very good thing in general, and for the mutation, but not for the breeder's pocket).

Do this with several different mates, then breed the split offspring to each other, outcross again, etc. etc. it's just using the genetic material from non-mutant specimens of a species to strengthen the genetic variability of the mutation in question. (this is extremely generalised, but you get the idea)

This is obviously what's been done with the aforementioned albino mutations in Oscars, Zebras, etc. If they hadn't been outcrossed at some point in time, the mutation's bloodline would be weak and the mutation in all probability lost.

But if said mutation's genetic variability is high enough (through outcrossing), and there are several populations of unrelated stock going around, then breeding unrelated albino to albino will not be detrimental to their genetics.

Fish breeders have it easy anyway, you should try figuring out mutation multi-combinations in birds.

I have personally bred a White-faced Cinnamon Pied Cockatiel, from White-faced split pied split cinnamon male, and White-faced pearl female Parents, how's that for a mouthful

And besides all that, nearly all the so-called "Albino" mutations i've seen in fish aren't truly Albino anyway, but Leucistic.

(NB. This last paragraph has nothing to do with the discussion at hand and if you are still trying to suss that out, ignore it)

[Boots n all]

Do you know why people are talking of out crossing?

Most of the fish are from two different sources, the first group are, well long distance swimmers , the second group are from a pair of fish that have been here quiet some time, one half of this pair is pure Albino(Female ?) and the other is a ....split/Cross(Male ?).

Now it is my understanding that people who want to out cross( and this is the very reason for this thread) is because of the very high death rate in the young albino fry from the first groups off spring(the long distance swimmers), this strain is weak or so it would seem so, as some people are reporting a death rate of 80% from their fspawns, at that death rate of 80% the species would not last 5 years due to that the 20% that survive for resale most will not make it to adult hood let alone spawn/produce fry due to poor fish keeping by many as with any other species.

In fact out crossing may very well be the only way to save this species, remember this is the reason that people are thinking of out crossing, not just to experiment