Ged Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I have read in some literature discussions regarding species and tank size. In some of my readings it has discussed some species being housed in tanks 60cm long and 60 litres (ie. L caeruleus) but in reality is this the case. I generally have the impression that 3 foot tanks should be the minimum size that you would house your Mbuna colonies. Have people had smaller breeding tanks that not only been productive in the short-term but also ensured the long-term wellbeing of the fish? Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I agree 3ft tanks minimum, i've seen some mighty big yellows and don't see how any mbuna could be housed in anything less than 3ft as they still grow a good size. I would think anything less would stunt the growth of the fish as they grow into adult hood. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropheusQueen Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Hi there, Due to lack of tank space......too may Tropheus colonies taking over we are holding some small (in number) mbuna colonies in large 2 footers. Ps saulosi are doing well and continuing to breed as are my cobue, and I have also bred Ps demasoni in same tanks against all advice until their 4 footer was ready . I also breed leleupi in a 2'. Whilst not the ideal size IMO there appears to be no detrimental effect on the fish. The only word of advice is to move fry out into larger growing tanks as they grow and if space allows the breeding colonies as well. Cheers Aline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ged Posted February 16, 2005 Author Share Posted February 16, 2005 Aline What size colonies are they and what is the proportion of males to females? Has this been a short-term solution to your stocking problem or have the colonies been in the 2 footers for some time. I know that you have 2fters and 2fters. By using 24"X18"x18" or 24"X18"x24"you can increase the water capacity but is the issue water capacity or the area that can occupied (ie area of the botttom of the tank). Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeWs Fish Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I think your best optioin would be to get some mbuna fry you like and start to grow them up in the 2fter. Something very popular and pretty like demasoni would be good to grow up in a 2fter (maybe get 12 of them). Once they get to about 3-4cm give them a 3fter and watch them start to breed. Also this is a good time to start removing the excess males. By the time they start breeding you will have one of the most attractive and sought after breding colonies of mbuna commonly available. in a 2ft, your probably much better off breeding some small catfish or some shell dwellers than mbuna (some the most energetic and agressive africans). HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropheusQueen Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I'm not even going to go near that last post for want of saying something I should not The advice given on the demasoni is not one I would advocate. Anyone wanting to speak on this further can PM or phone me. Gerard, It started out as a temporary solution for the saulosi 1:4 ratio and has ended being a few months now. The tank is a 24x18x24. I have watched them use the whole tank to move about in, this may obviously vary from species to species but I doubt that volume would have as much importance as floor area. I have to state again that I believe a larger tank more suitable for feisty mbuna, but am testament to the fact that it can be done. Cheers Aline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Just want to say IMO/E It is definately floor area that is paramount over actual water volume. High narrow tanks are just about useless IMO. I am currently using tanks 4x2' base and only 15" (maybe 16"?) high. I find them to be fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ged Posted February 16, 2005 Author Share Posted February 16, 2005 Aline Thanks for your advice. I noted that you agree that the larger tank was the better option. Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 If I was game to recommend a Mbuna for a 2 foot tank it would not demasoni. I wouldn't even keep them in a three foot tank, but if that works for you then great. Considering the trouble you had with yours Mike in their 3 foot tank, I am quite surprised you would give out that recomendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeWs Fish Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I have a colony of 6 (2m 4f) in a standard 3ft tank (got a mouthfull today) I have another colony of 6 2m and 4f ins a 3ft x51cm x51 and theyre constantly breeding. In the second tank i mantioned im strongly considering getting another 4 girls. Ive been growing the demasoni fry up in 2ft and 3ft tanks and the only deaths ive had are when the bigger fish in the tanks take a nibble at them. Thats when i move the bigger fish into the next tank to grow them out properly. At the beginning I did have 10 adults in the 3x51x51 but what i did wrong was feed them medium size veggie pellets instead of veggie FLAKE and it must have blocked their intestines becuase i lost 6 from bloat. Ever since then they have been breeding strongly. Franky, i dont see what the fuss is about. A dozen fry or so will be fine ina 2fter once all the exess males are removed they will be fine in a 3fter as adults. You wouldnt want to have more than 2 males in there though. A few nips in fins etc and it will stop the girls from breeding. I even keep elongatus in standard 3ft tanks (which can be even nastier than demasoni) i have around 3-4 males and around 10 girls. No aggression problesm at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I call it 'lombardoi syndrome'........just because a species is agressive doesn't mean they are not managable in a smaller tank (3ft) with alot of hiding holes and some floating PVC it is manageable. Personaly i'd have a couple more females and one less male than Mike (with the demasoni), just to be on the safer side, but if that works for him then its ok IMO. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropheusQueen Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Mike You may want to preface your advice with an IMO. What you have experienced is not par for the course with these mbuna. I believe that a bit more care needs to be taken when giving advice especially in the role of a moderator. I have been breeding demasoni for nearly two years with no deaths, bar three of the first colony I ever bought due to my stupidity I offer a template when i give advice of what has worked for me and with a good dose of luck may work for others as well. The fuss is that there are members with a hell of a lot more experience than you so take it on the chin . I am very happy that your experience with demasoni has been a successful one. Aline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeWs Fish Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 *takes one on the chin* but still wouldn't try breeding them in a 2fter ROFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 ......good to see the forum vets are doing there part , despite our lack of experience we are learning more every day, so the more advice you vets and others can give, the better the advice we less experienced mods can refer to in the future . Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TropheusQueen Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I didn't try at all - the demasoni did all the work. Well done and thank you Anthony - humility at it's best. Tried to bring some intelligence into the post my mistake . I'm not even going to go near that last post for want of saying something I should not The advice given on the demasoni is not one I would advocate. Anyone wanting to speak on this further can PM or phone me. I'll stand by my original comment before this goes to the playground Aline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 I think it's best that we keep Ged's original question in mind here.... I generally have the impression that 3 foot tanks should be the minimum size that you would house your Mbuna colonies. Have people had smaller breeding tanks that not only been productive in the short-term but also ensured the long-term wellbeing of the fish? He's asking what is normal for mbuna, and is talking about breeding them. Normally you would be asking for trouble, carnage even, to try and breed any type of mbuna long term in a 2ft tank. Sure, fry can be raised in them and transferred out as they get bigger, but that's not what Ged is asking And for the record, since we have now started talking 3ft tanks, I would want to go for a 3x18 base as a minumum, and would not attempt to breed any of the more agro types in there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Hi all I am not any form of expert but I just had young Electric yellows bred in 2x18's but that is because I did not want them too . They were being using as tank cyclers not breeders certainly not my recommendation . When I establish my yellow breeding colony they will be in a much bigger tank. They will probably be sharing a 6x2x18 tanks until I can upgrade the tanks in the house to 4x18 or 4x2. My salousi are currently breeding quite well in a standard 4' tank. cheers Rosco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ged Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 That was my dilemma in the first place that literature and reality did not match. You can read as much as possible on the subject but in reality it does not always much up with what people have experienced. It was this discrepancy that lead to the question in the first place. I acknowledge that making generalisations can be tricky. I always try and take forum members' replies as their own opinions. I was checking that my thoughts on tank size, was an accurate assumption to make. I am grateful for everyone’s advice from an administrator, moderator, forum veterans and members. That what makes this hobby and in particular this forum great. Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakeyBoyR Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 I tried mbuna in a 2' and it was just not working. Too much aggression and not enough floor space. Even with a heavily stocked tank to try and disperse aggression, there was still far too much jaw locking going on. No matter what I did in terms of rearranging rockwork and separating trouble makers, there was always one fish that would dub itself king of the tank and relentlessly pound the other fish. This of course does not mean other people wont have more luck than I did, but obviously I am only able to comment on my own experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Camel Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 IMHO, I think Ps. saulosi would be fine. They are one of the smaller mbuna and also one of the the least aggressive IME. I would purchase about a dozen fry from somebody, grow them all up, sell all the males, obtain a new male (from different stock) and you should be laughing. Aim for 1 male and about 5ish females. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 The only reason Ps. saulosi would be one of the smallest mbuna would be if they are inadequately housed IMHO. I have seen some absolute monsters of this species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepperfish Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 Yeah I saw a 10cm Saulosi male in the lfs the other day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 G'day Ged I was reading your article in the latest Mag today and was pondering what I would put into your fishroom. The elongatus (and even worse) the demasoni are both very angry fish. (We have and breed both types and like them very much, but to be honest the students may not like the overtly aggressive behaviours) I was thinking that maybe some cobue may be the answer for you. They will happily breed in 3 foot tanks and are not overly aggressive. (Please insert usual disclaimer here about that rare fish that is a monster and the howls of protest about the"big ones" that couldn't possibly live in such a small tank) Another species that would be a great fish to breed is the bristlenose. They are not mouthbrooders so the students will learn that there are differing methods of spawning fish. I currently build a bristlenose cave that has a glass bottom. This allows me to check when the fry are free swimming. This same type of cave would permit the students to watch as the eggs develop. Or if you get a particularly dedicated male you may be able to convince him to breed up against the front wall of the tank. (This is where I got the idea for the glass bottomed bristly caves that I now build.) Maybe someone else can offer some further suggestions??? (Then again maybe you are counting on their aggro and wish to use trait to educate the students? ) HTH Matthew.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ged Posted March 9, 2005 Author Share Posted March 9, 2005 Matthew Thanks for the suggestions. I have had a change in tank sizes and number that have been made available for the school. The tanks will be going in on Monday and include ten 2 footers, eight 3 footers and two 4 footers. This will give us a bit more versatility when we stock our tanks. The problem was that initially the 2 footers were going to be the mainstay of the room. I will still have room for another two 4 footers or a combination of 3 and 2 footers in the racks that I have. I have been taking plenty of photos so once the room is complete I will post them. Aggro is not the quality that I am looking for in the fish species. One of the aims of the room in the first place was to get more young people involved in cichlids. Having fish that are aggressive may inhibit some students from starting a tank up at home. Whilst I am not ruling certain species out I would want to be able to maintain them in a condition that does not cause undue stress to them, i.e. too small a tank. I had not considered adding Bristlenose to the room but I have a look at it. Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 G'day Ged The only other fish I would consider is maybe one of the americans. My choice would actually be brachybranchus, but they may prove too shy and refuse to breed. So my suggestion would be Green Terrors. The parental care showed to the fry is magnificent. My gold suams will defend their brood despite an overstocked 6x2x2 and some predatory catfish as well. In fact my female is currently guarding eggs atm. She does this on a regular basis. You would be able to breed them in a four foot tank but methinks that a 3 foot may be a little too small. The americans generally show true devotion to their young, eg. the brachybranchus look after their fry once released and in times of danger both parents will house the fry in their mouth. An awesome sight to see. But a bit of a gamble to even get them to breed unless maybe they grow up in the room and are used to the coming and goings of the students. They also make awesome display fish perhaps they could go in the library until they become sexually mature? Hmmmmmmm So many fish to chose from! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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