Aquaman Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Hi Folks, I started with 7 of these little guys about two weeks ago, down to 3 now, and not 100% certain as to why they're dying Here's my water parameters: 0 - Nitrite and Ammonia 8.4 - PH 27 - GH (degrees) 15 - KH 27 degrees - temperature Observed uneated food, assuming they've either digested something off and it's killed them, or there's a maniac killer in the tank. Just went and took another look and now it's only 2 left - the other has vanished! Any ideas? Cheers Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anchar Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Hi Richard, Bad news indeed Any other tank mates? Where did you end up sourcing the shells from? merjo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted January 18, 2005 Author Share Posted January 18, 2005 No other tank mates, there's a rock with some cave like holes in it, the sponge filter and some small bit's of plastic pipe which they've made a home in... I was planning on going the PVC elbow pipe method (which I was going to buy today) until I source some shells - they're too expensive at LFS'. Cheers Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeW Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Hi Richard - I also have not had this kind of problem with this fish. Would recommend reduced feeding, 30% water change and some hope. Are there any symptoms apparent on the dead fish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted January 18, 2005 Author Share Posted January 18, 2005 I did notice a slight bulge on the underside of the mouth similar to a holding moutbrooder and thought it to be strange, however I didn't consider this a link to the fishes death...I'm being more careful with the amounts I'm feeding them. As they don't go for their food in the same manner as my other fish I suppose they're a little more tricky to feed correctly. I've also eliminated the crushed pellets I was feeding them in the hope that it may have been the problem (pieces too hard/big?) Cheers Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barramundi Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Hey Aquaman, sorry for your losses mate. My multi's are pretty active feeders & their diets fairly broad - protein - so would be surprised if that's your cause. If they're not feeding actively it sounds more like sickness? I assume you've watched them to see if they're fighting? A dominant male can cull you community pretty quick but not normally the females, so unless you were unlucky with a bunch of males or something??? Curious, what size tank are they in? & what's the nitrate reading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hungsta Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 0 - Nitrite and Ammonia 8.4 - PH 27 - GH (degrees) 15 - KH 27 degrees - temperature I have been reading some shelldweller articles and one mentioned that shellies are very sensitive to oxygen levels. With increasing temp, there is a lack of oxygen to which the shellies can utilise. I'm sure that this is not the problem, just thought i'd share it with you. Just wondering was the tank cycled before adding the fish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted January 19, 2005 Author Share Posted January 19, 2005 Thanks for the thoughts folks apologies for the delayed response - been a little difficult to get to the PC My multi's are pretty active feeders & their diets fairly broad - protein - so would be surprised if that's your cause. If they're not feeding actively it sounds more like sickness? They look fairly healthy but you raise a good point. Not sure what sickness to look out for but I'll keep it in mind as I observe... I assume you've watched them to see if they're fighting? A dominant male can cull you community pretty quick but not normally the females, so unless you were unlucky with a bunch of males or something??? Quite possible, I hadn't seen any fighting as such, but then I haven't been watching them for any significant periods of time (they're in the garage) so that may have been the cause Curious, what size tank are they in? They're in a 18"x8"x10" and were being upgraded to a 2'x1'x1' shortly Just wondering was the tank cycled before adding the fish? The filter was well established, sand was new and I think the water was new. Tank had been running that way for around one week I think. I'd have thought the cycled filter would have supported the new load of fish, could be wrong however P.S There's a houdini in the tank, so I have three left - hopefully at least 1M, 1F Thanks again Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teejaybee Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 7??? In one tank??? Any more than 2 (a pair - one male one female) in my 4x2x2 with a fair few hiding places and visual barriers results in all excess multi's being killed. After it's down to the pair, the fish are just as tolerant as any others. I haven't yet worked out if it's the male or the female doing the damage. I've been through the same ordeal, wondering about water and other fish killing them (frontys etc) but as soon as it's down to the pair in the tank, they don't die. I'm positive these fish must be kept in a breeding pair. Some have had luck keeping a few pairs in a tank with visual barriers etc. but from what i've seen, even if the shells are far apart and the male can service other females in other shells without the other female knowing, eventually the weaker of the females "disappears"... Jealousy maybe? Just my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 Teejaybee If you have them with fronnies then I would gues they would be more of a treat then anything else. I have 7 in a two foot tank and have no problems with agression. Aquaman You said they are in a shed. Is it insulted? It doesn't take much to get a small tank up and over 30 degrees on a warm day in a shed with no insulation. Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chorrylan Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 You said they are in a shed. Is it insulted? that's it... someone insulted 'em and they're sulking to death. I would look to drop the temperature a bit though. Higher temperatures mean lower oxygen levels and better bacteria-breeding environments whereas I'd expect that being bottom dwellers in shell-strewn environments that the multies natural conditions would be with temperatures closer to 22 than 27. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted January 20, 2005 Author Share Posted January 20, 2005 I'm positive these fish must be kept in a breeding pair Interesting observation, I've read about them being harem spawners but aslo found something on the net about them culling excess fry. I'm fairly sure there's quite a few people out there doing fine with these guys in harems...Maybe you have an overly aggressive male? (as is possible with mine) they are in a shed. Is it insulted? Yep, polystyrene enclosed cabinet. However it has been hot lately and this particular tank is at the top of a rack, so could have overheated...good thought. that's it... someone insulted 'em and they're sulking to death Very funny! I take your point on the tempreature will reduce - thanks for the tip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 You said they are in a shed. Is it insulted Yes I am a Goose Thanks guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teejaybee Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 If you have them with fronnies then I would gues they would be more of a treat then anything else. I have 7 in a two foot tank and have no problems with agression. Maybe I should have clarified: "Disappeared" = found dead on the bottom with no major injuries seen. Disappeared down the toilet Never eaten by fronty's. Maybe killed by fronty's though... All other fish killed by my fronty's, you could tell. Munched on. 7 in a tank... what ratio of males to females? Successfully breeding? Do you leave all the babies in with the parents? I've found all of mine (occellatus, multi's, brichardi, etc) to be extremely agressive. They have "teeth"... have killed much larger fish due to the fact that they can inflict alot more damage. This sometimes brings them undone though... shell dwellers are usually bite sized A breeding pair of brichardi successfully kept a group of 10 7 bar frontosa away from 4ft of a 8ft tank... That is why I think 7 is a large number, but whatever works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted January 20, 2005 Author Share Posted January 20, 2005 7 in a tank... what ratio of males to females? Successfully breeding? Do you leave all the babies in with the parents? They were purchased as fry, so one is around 1cm, the other two are around 2.5 cm. They're not breeding as far as I can tell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teejaybee Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 Sorry Aquaman I was asking Little Swimmer... :D Yes I know they form harems... keep successful generations of babies and they all help out etc. It's a bit different when you buy them all together and dump them into a new tank I think though. The harem thing may only work after parents have bred. Maybe not? Hopefully the 1m and 1f you think you may have left will last. I've just read on another site that the females usually band together and stay near the shells with eggs in them to defend them, and the male will defend the colony as a whole. So, it's possible we could have both had a violent male/female. I haven't kept more than a pair since that occasion, and the pairs have got on fine together and not killed each other. When you get heaps of little tiny babies that look like eyes with tails coming in and out of the shell, it's pretty cool to watch. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 If it was death by aggression, you will see damage to the deceased, which I don’t recall you mentioning you have. I keep hundreds of these fish in a two foot tank, standing room only, and their aggression levels are nothing like for example an occelatus where visual barriers are needed to prevent aggression. The tank size may have something to do with it as a small tank’s water parameters may fluctuate quickly. If your filter was fully aged in another tank (3+ weeks), then you should have no problems. You also mention that you have no ammonia or nitrate, which will back this up. However, what about nitrate? These fish are pretty hardy (for a Tang), but if as you said you had uneaten food in the tank (words to that effect), you may have a nitrate issue. Do a good sized water change with pre-prepared water (i.e. pH, temp etc. adjusted). In regards the food, while you are trying to sort this problem out, try just feeding live food, such as wrigglers. That way if it is not eaten, it will have no impact on the tank (maybe on you in the shed though). I would also clean your filter (in old aquarium water) just to make sure it isn’t harbouring any built-up of something toxic. And speaking of toxic, the pipes you used, were they new? If so there may have been some contamination on them…. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted January 20, 2005 Author Share Posted January 20, 2005 Thanks Craig You also mention that you have no ammonia or nitrate, which will back this up. However, what about nitrate? I've never tested for nitrate, as my method of water management has always worked for me. I only test my water when I have a problem. The only other "mass" losses of fish I've had was due to bloodworms tearing the gut of some Julidochromis I used to have (visual evidence) - and no, I don't feed bloodworms anymore Do a good sized water change with pre-prepared water (i.e. pH, temp etc. adjusted). First thing I did when I noticed the deaths... And speaking of toxic, the pipes you used, were they new? No they'd been used in other tanks for quite a while. Bye the way, I'm still not 100% certain as to the cause of death - could have been a number of factors which I 've gradually eliminated where possible, but I'm suspecting I may have some fry in there. Every now and again I'll see the tiniest little critter (seen two now) buzzing all over the place - doesn't look like any aquatic "bug" I've seen before so they may be fry - here's for hoping! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 From my experience, fry stay where they were laid, protected by their parents. They are very small, but not really what I would call fast enough to prevent identification. I would say you have something in there other than multis and their young. If you have young, you would have parents (unless they are dead), you should have seen some sort of bonding between fish. I've never tested for nitrate, as my method of water management has always worked for me. I only test my water when I have a problem. I'd say you have a problem? Nitrate is still toxic, just not like the rest of the nitrite cycle. Personally, I don't think this is your problem as water changes will usually take care of this as you'ld know, but until you test, you can't be certain. Have you checked with the place you purchased the multis? Maybe as you've only had them a short time, they have a similar problem? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crabros Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 Hi Guys, Your water quality's are: 0 - Nitrite and Ammonia 8.4 - PH 27 - GH (degrees) 15 - KH 27 degrees - temperature Too me I believe that your gh and kh are to high. I have tropheus and X.spilopterus plus other Tang fish. I have my: gh = 15 kh = 10 Temp around 25 Now remember we have had hot weather around lately so the tank could be hotter then you think.(smaller tank water temp rises quicker) If there is a surplus of uneaten food in the tank mixed with a warm water could lead to an ammonia spike especially with small tanks. Ensure you have a airstone or filtration to keep oxygen levels higher. HTH Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquaman Posted January 23, 2005 Author Share Posted January 23, 2005 Thanks everyone for all you help on this as always, much appreciated I'll take the advice on board (and have already acted on some of it, will act on the rest as funds permit - eg the Nitrate test solution) the multi's are looking fairly happy now, I put their makeshift shells in the other day, one is occupying, and they're dancing - so assuming I have a pair Cheers Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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