catcher Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 G'day all, I run a double ended sump and consequently use a bit of polyester wadding / filter wool. I'd like to know if anyone out there knows of effective, cheap, re-usable alternative. I just think that when I take the wadding out to wash it so I might make it last more than a week, it falls apart and is never as effective. It is also grates on me that it is something that has to be thrown away so often and it would be good to come up with a more enviromentally friendly alternative. I've tried scourers etc but they all seem to let the fine particles through. I'm all ears !!!!! cheers glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I use filter sponge in mine. I have cut it to fit each compartment, and it sits at the top of each compartment so the dirty water has to flow through this before it hits any other media. I just lift the sponges out and rinse them in the sink regularly and the rest of my media stays clean. Some of my sponges are more than 4 yrs old and show no signs of deterioration yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agro77 Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Go to your local Air Conditioning Installer and ask if you can have some of the scrap tontine. They will give you a truck load. And they wont charge you as it is just scrap to them. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catcher Posted October 12, 2004 Author Share Posted October 12, 2004 Hi BaZ, The sponge you use is open pore and how thick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I use 2 kinds. The first 2 compartments have coarse black sponge, I got it from Monaco. The last compartment has fine white sponge which I got from Clark Rubber (ask them for 'pond filter') Both are about 50mm thick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wetfish Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 ive been keeping my eye out for an alternative for a while! sounds like a great idea. Wetfish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catcher Posted October 12, 2004 Author Share Posted October 12, 2004 Thanks all, You wouldn't believe this, after Agro's suggestion I checked on the tontine we use at work with Tontine Australia for any anti-bacterial treatment it may have. The stuff we use is in big sheets 25mm thick, heat bonded together and absolutely no chemical treatment is used on it for bonding or bacteria. WOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOO. So I'm trying it now, and fingers crossed, I got a piece and ran water through it and then rung it out, screwed it up and it holds it's shape, doesn't fall to pieces. I'll report on it for those interested after a few weeks. cheers glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I use filter sponge in mine. I have cut it to fit each compartment, and it sits at the top of each compartment so the dirty water has to flow through this before it hits any other media. If I understand correctly, you have put a layer of fine filtering material (sponge) in front of all other media? A filter for a filter? Doesn’t this make it a bit pointless having the rest of the media? If I have understood correctly, I have seen this approach elsewhere, and it always strikes me as daft (no offence intended) as the approach to mechanical filtration is to put the course layer first, then a finer layer and so on (I personally use three). I just lift the sponges out and rinse them in the sink regularly and the rest of my media stays clean. To put a layer of fine stuff in front seems to me to be a false economy as you'll have to clean this fine first layer more regularly than one set up with the different layers ordered from course to fine. That is, less work but frequently, compared to more work less often. If you want to go the rout of using this fine material first off, you may as well fill the entire chamber/s with this fine stuff and skip all the rest. Better yet, why don't you put another layer in front of this fine layer, that way you'll keep this layer clean as well!!! A filter for a filter for a filter – wow what a concept! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catcher Posted October 12, 2004 Author Share Posted October 12, 2004 Craig, Correct me if I'm wrong, this is how I have the return water hitting the sump. 1. Water hits disposable filter wool, this is what I'm trying to make more Enviro friendly as it's disposed of often. So, I'm trying the 25mm sheet tontine. 2. I have a diffuser plate the wool sits on, my design, no real need but I feel it spreads the water more evenly. 3. Course nylon mat, I think it's called Karp mat, very course and really only acts as additional bacteria media. 4. Filter media, filter rock etc. 5. Another layer of the Carp mat. Sort of a sandwich to keep the rocks etc in one spot. 6. Egg crate and pvc tubing legs to support it all. Isn't the idea to filter out the rubbish before it gets clogged in you filter media, and leave the media to deal with the good guy baterial content of the filter? I'm happy to hear any comments that will make the filter work better. Cheers glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Craig, I think you will find, in these setups, the fine material for the first layer (ie. your filter for the filter) is MECHANICAL ONLY. Once through the mechanical filter - the rest of the sump would be filled with some bio-media, which you dont want acting as mechanical filtration at all as you ideally want to never clean it. This is the way I have always interpreted these setups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catcher Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 G'day Duck, I suppose a pic would be better to explain. I just thought I maybe doing something wrong, but this system works great for me. These are pic before I used the difusser plates and tontine is now where the wool is on top. Hope this makes it clearer. cheers glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Well said Ducksta! Craig, this is not a filter for a filter, it's all part of the one filter. I use the sponges as my mechanical filtration and below the sponges I have bbq rock, scourers and oyster shells for the purposes of biological filtration and buffering. I don't see the point in constantly cleaning my bio media if I can avoid it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 The photos make it a lot clearer how it has been set up. Yes you don’t want the bio media to be acting as a mechanical filter. It hasn’t been set up as I thought it was explained. However, is the intention of the cama harda bio mat (spelling) for it to be used used as a bio media or a mechanical? I know it is a biological media, but it is often used as a mechanical. In your case it is effectively a bio media as the first layer of wool will prevent most if not all of dirt getting through. It would also be keeping the filter wool off the bio media below it which is an advantage. If I may add a suggestion to improve the set up? There is nothing stopping you putting enough bio media into the chamber so that the bio media is above the sump’s water level. The way you have set it up has introduced a limiting factor of oxygen that can be easily overcome by having the media out of the water (provided it stays wet). Bioballs have an advantage in that provided they stay wet during a power stoppage, the bacteria will be okay. Though your media won't be as effective as bio balls for oxygen exchange, they will obtain more oxygen if out of the water, and moist. The introduction of a drip tray for the water will spread the water better, and help prevent channelling. Lastly, I would still put a courser layer of mechanical filtration before the filter wool. I would by choice in your set up, use the cama harda bio mat as a mechanical media. There is nothing stopping you having more than one cama harda bio matt layer, and their location in the filter will dictate wether they are being utilised as biological or mechanical. I would put the the cama harda bio mat, then filter wool (possibly two layers), then the drip tray, then bio media above water level (possibly including a second layer of cama harda bio mat between the drip tray and the rest of the biological media), continuing the bio media below water level. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catcher Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 G'day Craig, The thread sort of drifted a bit rom my first question, but all the tooing and frowing is good to gain knowledge. Just to explain, the system pictured has been changed a little since that shot. The wool has now been changed to Tontine 25mm thick, which was the thread starter, trying to get something that worked well but was re-usable without falling apart after rinsing out. Below the tontine is a diffuser plate to spread the water as you suggested, the course matt is for bio not mechanical, I can't see how that would stop any mechanical material other than small boulders . My problem with using the plate on top is the splashing, the tontine absorbs the water without any splash and the sump doesn't have lid's. I could though add some more bio-balls to have a half-half wet dry sump i suppose. I do have a ton of air in the tank as well, I have a air curtain running full lenght at back (6ft). cheers glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 I to liked the suggestion of the Tontine material, and have in fact printed it out for future reference. There is sheet filter wool used in aquariums that doesn’t fall apart with blasting from a hose, but it is a bit pricy. I assume this tontine is cheaper, particularly if off-cuts are obtained for free. I wasn’t suggesting you put in bio balls, but to cause some of your bio media to be above the water. The reason for this is separate from the air in your tank. This will allow more air for your bacteria, which require oxygen. They themselves consume it, and in a separate chamber as they are, they have nothing in there increasing their aeration. Putting them above water level (provided they stay wet), will increase their access to oxygen. The bio mat WILL gather crap (technical term), and if it doesn’t no harm done. Yes the splashing would be a problem. You could look at putting lid on the sump over this chamber. You’d probably be surprised how much water you are losing through evaporation anyway, and this would prevent that. I recommended having the bio mat first then the filter wool, then the diffuser plate (which I didn’t see in the photo), which will also prevent splashing. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catcher Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 Craig, I'd be happy to drop off some tontine for you on my way home from work. It's in sheet form so you can cut it to size easily. What do you think? glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agro77 Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 What a great thread. Topic started off as a question about reusable mechanical filter medium, Ended up with suggestions for improving efficiencies in sumps by using drip trays and wet dry setups, all this mechanical material is total free all it requires is a quick trip to the local air conditioning expert!!! Good I love this forum Ant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marls Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Hi Glenn, RE: Tontine... Do you if the above material changes the PH level.....Coz I've just done a quick search on Tontine fibre and it has a PH level of 7.8....Do you if Tontine is inhert ??? It would be interesting to see what affects it has on your water... Cheers. ..Appearance: Green, Black, Charcoal or White thermally bonded polyester waddings. ..Melting Point: 250 degreesC ..Vapour Pressure: Not applicable ..Per cent Volatiles: Nil ..Specific Gravites: 1.38 ..Flash Point: Not applicable ..Flammability: Complies with the Building Code of Australia ..Auto Ignition Temp: Not applicable ..Other Properties: Non Allergenic, low irritant, resilient ..Ingredients: Organic, Long chain polyester polymer ..Max. Service Temp: 150 degreesC ..Alkalinity: pH 7.8 (pH 7 is neutral) ..Moisture ..Absorption: Exposure to an atmosphere of 50 degreesC & 95% RH for four days gives a moisture absorption of less than 0.2% by volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catcher Posted October 14, 2004 Author Share Posted October 14, 2004 G'day Marls, The tontine I'm trying is called Tontine Rigid Blackliner (TRB2). The tech details are: Melting Point: 250°C Vapour Pressure: Not Applicable Per Cent Volatiles: Nil Specific Gravity: 1.38 Flash Point: Not Applicable Flammability: Complies with the Building Code of Australia Other Properties: Non Allergenic, low irritant, resilient Ingredients: Organic, Long chain synthetic polymer Chemical Entity: Composed of Carbon -Hydrogen -Oxygen Max. Service Temp: 150°C Alkalinity: pH 7.8 (pH 7 is neutral) Moisture Absorption: Exposure to an atmosphere of 50°C & 95% RH for four days gives a moisture absorption of less than 0.2% by volume. So, they sound pretty similar. I run my pH at about 8.1, so I'd be supprised if there was any dramatic changes, with the water temp running through it so low there would be little or no chance of composition breakdown. cheers glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 I’m no scientist, but if the material is a polyester polymer, (plastic?) then regardless of its pH, I don’t think it will be able to impart its chemistry to our water. More intelligent persons are welcome to dispute this and educate me in the process. I would like to try some out Glenn, thanks for the offer, when do you want to stop in? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marls Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Hi Craig, Ingredients: Organic, Long chain polyester polymer Yeah, I was wondering about the "organic" ingredient.... What is giving it the PH7.8 level.... ? Do plastics have a PH level, I don't think so... ?? Cheers Marls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest african-au Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 hi glenn i will be setting up an 8x3x2 shortly with also a double sump may i ask------ is the media in your sump large (pebbles)? chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catcher Posted October 17, 2004 Author Share Posted October 17, 2004 G'day Chris, No the media is just "matrix" I buy it from a LFS and mix up broken bits of old coral etc. If you pre-filter it right you should never have to change it, just run your hand through it about every six months to move round a bit so it doesn't compact. If you need any other details on the double sump, I'm happy to help. cheers glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest african-au Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 hi glenn it must of been the close up which made it look huge i am also running matrix in my 4x2x2 i have found that if you place an airstone under matrix it does wonders i have never had anything but quality water & its been running for two years without a touch! very happy with sump! cheers chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 The characteristic that Matrix has over other similar biological medias such as Efisubstrat (don’t you love these German words), is that it has the ability (so the advertisements say) to remove nitrate, in addition to the usual ammonia and nitrite. The reason it can supposably do this is that as it has a relatively large size (compared to Efisubstrat), the centre of each piece of Matrix (or at least the larger pieces) has the potential to be an anaerobic zone. That is, an area without oxygen. This is where the bacteria live that remove nitrate. If you put an air stone under Matrix, and increase the amount of oxygen (great for the bacteria that requires O2), do you think this also might reduce or eliminate the area that is anaerobic by increasing the area that is aerobic? If so, then the Matrix will also lose its ability to remove nitrate. I have set my sump up with two sections, one for Efisubstrat, which I have air stones underneath. The other for Matrix, where I use no aeration. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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