Prime and Ammonia

[oracle]

Hi,

As some of you might know, I have been having problems with my bembas. In any case, I decided to check the water parameters last night and was aghast to find that there were traces of ammonia (0.5-1ppm) - which seemed unusual since the water was only changed the day before and the tank has been running for more than a year.

To dilute the ammonia, I decided to do a 50% water change but to my surprise, the reading was still the same. Thinking that it might be the tap water, I then checked the ammonia level but was unable to find any traces of ammonia. In exasperation, I decided to do another 30% water change, only to discover that the reading was still the same.

By this stage, I was baffled and decided to test the water going into the tank (with Prime added) and to my surprise, the primed water was actually showing traces of ammonia! To confirm this finding, I emptied the bucket and filled it with freshwater from the tap, added some prime before re-testing the water a few times (using 4 different glass tubes that were provided by the test kit) and on each occasion, the result was the same!

Is it possible for Prime to increase ammonia count when first added? Has anyone experienced this bizarre problem before? :

The test was done using:

Aquarium Pharmaceutical Freshwater Test Kits

and the results were as follows:

10 litre bucket - negative results

10 litre bucket with 5 drops of Prime - positive results

10 litre bucket with home made buffers and salts - negative results

10 litre bucket with 5 drops of Prime & home made buffers and salts - positive results

[YeW]

Hi -

The way I understand it is that prime breaks the chloramine bond and binds to the ammonia molecule (making it inert) the prime-ammona compound is then broken down in your filter.

You could simply be detecting the prime-ammonia compound. It doesn't necessarily mean there is active ammonia in the water.

HTH -

[Exiledonmainstreet]

Dave is exactly right. After using prime, the chemical composition of ammonia changes, and is converted into a harmless chemical, which is then broken down and removed by your filtration. You may continue to get positive readings for up to two weeks after using it, though your water is safe immediately after use. Good luck.

[oracle]

Hi Yew, thanks for your response. If that's the case, how can we test for active ammonia if the test kit will pick up all traces of ammonia?

[Exiledonmainstreet]

Hi oracle. In case you missed it, I replied to your post after Yew : As I mentioned before there is no way to avoid the positive readings for up to 2 weeks after use. You just have to trust the prime. I've used it for years now, with no fish loss.

[wui39]

Hi i use the same test kit but I've found the lest i test the happier the fish seem to be. If i fiddle with the water too much, they kind of get jumpy.

Wui-Kiat

[Flashgordon]

Guys

The only way I'm aware of to test for just active ammonia and not give yourself heart attacks is to use the Seachem Ammonia Alert disk. I have been using this for a year now and I swear by it. It sits in the tank and tests for active ammonia 24 hours a day 365 days a year and you can see at a glance whether you have a problem or not. If everything is fine it is yellow, if your fish are about to die it is purple, if there is trouble then it is a green or grey colour.

Almost all the other test kits react to both active and inert ammonia and give you false readings.

If you are into the Lord of the Rings, think of the Ammonia Alert disk as a Gollum disk - you can hear it thinking: Bad ammonia - Purple. Good ammonia - Yellow.:lol:

Aquaria Australia, one of the sponsors, sell it on their web site

[Nigel]

I agree with Gordon i have used them for years i have them in all my tanks at home and in the quarantine room. If you have a mini reef just stick them down in there. :^:

[oracle]

Thanks for the input guys. I hope I can get these Seachem disks this weekend.

[Ben]

If that's the case, how can we test for active ammonia if the test kit will pick up all traces of ammonia?

As everyone has said you cant, however, you can stop using prime when doing water changes.

Get yourself a drum or drums that will hold enough water for you to do your water changes. Fill the drums with tap water and add an air stone for three days. After the water has sat in the drums for three days with the aeration it will be chlorine free and ready for your fish.

That’s the way most people do it. If room is an issue then unfortunately you are stuck with the false readings.

I remember visiting a fellow fish freaks house and seeing lots of 2lt cordial bottles full of water aging to do water changes on their 2 foot tanks. :D

[oracle]

Ben, thanks for the input but I live in an apartment and space is indeed an issue. My wife will definitely divorce me if I was to start placing drums in the living room or spare bed room. :D

[PHL]

If that's the case, how can we test for active Get yourself a drum or drums that will hold enough water for you to do your water changes. Fill the drums with tap water and add an air stone for three days. After the water has sat in the drums for three days with the aeration it will be chlorine free and ready for your fish.

Would this also work with Chloramine, as it's much more persistant?

[Ducksta]

NO, that method is insufficient to remove chloromine.

The fact that the prime is indicating ammonia in the water, means that it has broken the bond between the chlorine and ammonia (cloromine) and there is in fact chloromine in the tap water. My understanding is that if there is not chloromine in the tap water, the prime does not generate ammonia readings, but it will still neatralise the regular chlorine.

Aging water is still a good idea regardless of whether you are adding Prime or anything else though.

[Exiledonmainstreet]

The Seachem readers will also read positive for ammonia when using prime. There is no way around it.

[PHL]

NO, that method is insufficient to remove chloromine.

The fact that the prime is indicating ammonia in the water, means that it has broken the bond between the chlorine and ammonia (cloromine) and there is in fact chloromine in the tap water. My understanding is that if there is not chloromine in the tap water, the prime does not generate ammonia readings, but it will still neatralise the regular chlorine.

Aging water is still a good idea regardless of whether you are adding Prime or anything else though.

That's what I thought; unfortunately it often isn't practical to age water when you have to change 100L, so looks like I'll have to keep up the Prime...

[Jim]

Here are some answers i got from seachem regarding Ammonia and Prime,

Safe and Prime and all other ammonia revomal products do not physically "remove" the ammonia; they bind

it up into a non-toxic form that is then broken down by the

biofilter. However this non-toxic form is generally only stable for

24 hours... after that it will begin to degrade and release the

ammonia. So, you can either (a) use Prime or Safe just before adding

the water to the aquarium to remove the ammonia again or (b)

stir/aerate the water so that any ammonia released is

gassed off if you are storing it for several days.

Ammonia alert and ammonia test kits;

Ammonia Alerts detects only toxic free ammonia. If you

are testing with a conventional test kit (salicylate or nessler

method) then you will get a false reading for ammonia because the

test conditions destroy the ammonia-Prime/Safe complex (or any other

product like these as well) thus releasing the ammonia and giving a

false impression of the actual free ammonia in the system).

HTH

[Exiledonmainstreet]

Exactly what's been said. Thanks for verifying it jim.

[oracle]

However this non-toxic form is generally only stable for

24 hours... after that it will begin to degrade and release the

ammonia.

I am a bit concerned at this statement considering that I don't have any barrels for aging water (to let ammonia gas off naturally). I wonder if anyone else in the forum is in the same situation as me (ie. keep tropheus but don't perform water aging)?

[Jim]

Oracle what u can do is use the water within 24 hrs of adding Pime/Safe that way it wont degrade into toxic ammonia.

I age my water for a week or two and add salts and buffers but i do not add Prime/Safe until i am ready for my water change which is usually within the 24 hr period.

HTH

[CThompson]

For those that are interested, all areas of Australia now have chloramine in the water.

In regards to water change barrels, these are great, as you can not only add all the water ager there, you can also pre-buff/salt and heat, which allows you to do larger water changes without risk. I happily take out 80% on my fry grow out tanks every two days, and have never lost a fish. The barrels are so handy, I don't think I could set up a tank now with out some sort of water storage facility.

Craig

[PHL]

In regards to water change barrels, these are great, as you can not only add all the water ager there, you can also pre-buff/salt and heat, which allows you to do larger water changes without risk. I happily take out 80% on my fry grow out tanks every two days, and have never lost a fish. The barrels are so handy, I don't think I could set up a tank now with out some sort of water storage facility.

Are yours plumbed in, or do you just draw what you require off the barrel?

[CThompson]

They are not plumved, but I do have a permanent MP4200 with attached hose set up in such a way that I can reach any of my tanks.

Craig

[Alan]

If we start thinking outside the square (or rectangle, as most aquariums are) and do a bit of research on water treatment etc., is amazing what you find.

http://www.zelbrite.com/index.html

Is a prepared zeolite product that binds amonia and nitrites etc. It is an adsorber for those who have studied soil sciences or chemistry :- selfexplanitory, for others it kind of like blotting paper and soaks up chemicals, can be cleaned, dried out and recharged.

See your local pool shop, cheaper than your LFS

Alan

[mark_1]

yer over use of prime can cause high levels of amonia.

[duck]

someone must be REALLY bored!! digging out 18mths old thread ....time to get a life ??