Buccal Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I to have noticed fish acting stressed when I've tried large water changes.And chuck, again just some healthy chat,,, in a small closed system, multiple species mixed are always going to be competing for space for own species existence,,, the bigger the tank, obviously the less it becomes but remains a factor.I have 130 tanks for breeding colonies only,,,,,, off track soon to be more than doubled in volume.But through all the many recent years of growing colony after colony and bringing up following generations,, it's a very hard noticeable fact that's definete.80% of the time a single species gets their own tank,,, the other 10% I put two species together and the remaining 10% I put two species together just to grow out together then seperate later.EVERY single time in these tanks with mixed fish,, the growth difference has been staggeringly noticeable,,,, to me it's not debatable.I run many narrow 4 footers and 6x2x2.Rearing fry together doesn't seem to be a issue unless there's just to many individuals packed in.But from 4-5cm onwards species start to impact each other.Competition for space for regenerative reasons places a degree of low level stress.Any stress causes slowing of growth,,, increased stress causes possibility of disease.This is why I can't wait to increase breed room size, as the more species I obtain and bring secondary generations through while having the primary colonies still going.Raising of new colonies to maturity will be as fast as it can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlecoSam Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Yeah I have noticed it too, you can match ph, kH and gh but you cannot match nitrate as well as other built up nutrients, metals etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlecoSam Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Hey Buccal, we have not started on nitrate filtration yet, that's when it will heat up, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fins Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I have 130 tanks for breeding colonies only,,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benno Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Nothin wrong with a healthy discussion buccal I don't disagree with you for a second. Back when I was a teenager I was obsessed with discus and joined the simply discus forum and would sit there for hours reading just about everything on there. These guys were and still are changing phenomenal amounts of water on they're discus tanks( display, breeding and grow out). Since seeing the advantages and crazy growth on these discus over a few months I figured why not incorporate this into keeping other American cichlids. I read quite a few times on there that if you can only do one water change a week it should be a large one. Ideally I would do 2 smaller changes a week but the tank is upstairs and I can barely be bothered carting buckets up stairs 1 night a week let alone 2 after working 11 hour days and also having a plate and 10 screws inserted into my tibia and ankle bone 4 months ago haha. But yea I even used the same regime when the tank was stocked with angels, tetras, rams and Bolivians and never had a death apart from a couple of tetras getting nailed lol. Even the 6 week old gt fry are absolutely thriving and double in size every couple of days. May also be because I'll only clean one tray out of my canister filter every couple of months. Works for me tho, sorry to the op for taking the thread completely off topic lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buccal Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 If it works for you mate, then that explains it within itself,,, for you it works.I've seen it come a cropper a few times by others, and myself when I was young.But being lightly stocked would help in such situation because if bb numbers was declined there wouldn't be much waiste to tackle anyway.Discus in general are usually lightly stocked.Over seas in discus farms they do 80-90% changes but these are very often and they do have special additives that detoxify or even man made cultivated bb strains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckmeister Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Personally I dont understand the need to do such large water changes so often. the sole reason for doing water changes is to remove nitrates (unless cycling of course, removing medication etc) Unless your tank is so overly stocked that you fear having problems then all I see is perfectly good water being changed for no reason. Or a tank so overly stocked that maybe a second tank might be advisable. You also need to be mindful of PH shock with massive changes even with water that has been rested and de-chlorinated.Take my planted tank for example. the plants obviously use nitrates as food but I just tested the water and I still have zero nitrates after not doing a water change for 5 months. There is no need to because the water is perfectly fine.I mean if its working and the fish are happy then alls good...I just dont see the need to work so hard for an issue that is unlikely there.benno if you are still carrying buckets for water changes then maybe check this vid.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjoconr Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 It seems to me that if your levels are that high all the time, then maybe you need to do something to reduce the inputs.I've been testing the Hydro Pure filters for a while now and have 3 tanks using these filters, they convert the NH3 out to gas so the NO3 is never created.My NO3 is never more than 1ppm at the end of each week.My only concern with these filters is if they stopped working the tank might spike. So I have about 500mg of Macropore in each tank just in case.Just an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlecoSam Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Not sure if the macropore will help much MJ, but I also share your concerns, the hydra will also lower your bb count won't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjoconr Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 bb is short for ?Edit:I did a few search's and I think you mean the bacteria used to convert NH3 to NO2 and then NO3, though I'm not sure why the short form BB as the bacteria are called Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira.The Hydra does lower the amount of the bacteria in the aquarium for that work, which is why I'm concerned about a failure of the filter causing a problem.The macropure removes Nitrite & Nitrate meaning if the filter was to fail, the remaining bactera would convert the NH3 to NO2 and this would be removed by the macropure.The bacteria for converting to NO2 grow very very quickly, I understand they can double every 30 mins. So with the pad filters I have in the tanks the issue should be covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlecoSam Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Beneficial Bacteria, I was being lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisheggs Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I am currently utilising an internal hydra filter too inside the tank and only used to assist with nitrate. I've got a sump as my main filter but I was really surprised that this filter system isn't very popular or not well known. Whether it works or not , I don't believe it made a significant impact on nitrate to justify spending money on it. And on top of that you will be required to replace the cartridge that comes with it, which Ive forgotten what exactly the material is.Curious to hear more about people's opinions on this filter.Like buccal once told me, most of the technology out there that claims to remove nitrate doesn't actually make a huge impact unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlecoSam Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I think certain products will reduce nitrates, but the problem is the results vary greatly, I have not tested this theory but seems plausible as some obtain nitrate reduction and others do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjoconr Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I purchase a seachem ammonia kit this tests Nh3 and total ammonia. All the setups which I have which I started from scratch with just this filter have as close to undetectable NH3 and NH4+ us around 0.05 (not more than 1.0). NO2 and NO3 again almost not detectable (NO3 not more than 1.0). I have a post about this on this forum which I have not updated since I added a third setup (a rack of 3 X 100l tanks and a 80l holding tank) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisheggs Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Is this your only filter and would you consider your tank to be overstocked ? My local fish store mentioned that it's more noticeable on high nitrate level in terms of nitrate reduction compared to low levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjoconr Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Well one tank is 4" (200L) with about 30 African Cichlids which are about 6 to 8 month old using a hydra stream 2. A 2" (80l) with about 10 fish about the same age and an internal version I think a 50. The rack is new and only has about 15 fish in 2 of the 3 tanks and a hydra stream 2As mentioned I have pad (poret pad) setup as HMF for the 4" and rank. The 2" has only the internal filter I use it as a QT tank. I plan to add a second filter of some type as a backup as some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buccal Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Yeah, if you take away the beneficial bacterias (bb) food source, it will drop to low standby numbers.Exhaustion of your medias and technologies that extract the bb food is not to much of a issue if it doesn't occur straight after feeding which you'd have to be unlucky.It rejuvenate pretty fast,,, but always good to have a emergency 2 liter bottle of seachem prime,,, works instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benno Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I always chuck 3 cap fulls of prime into the 200 litre water drum before a change. Magic stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlecoSam Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 3 cap fulls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjoconr Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Sure prime is great but that's not the reason for this conversation. The tank owner commenting on his NO3 levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buccal Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 It's a appropriate part of the conversation,,, as everything in discussion that the technology converts (ammo, nitrite, nitrate), and water changes that surround it having influence,,,, if all of this was to go pear shaped from a certain failure,,,, then prime is a emergency saver,,,, a part of it all. Detox the disaster (heavens forbid). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlecoSam Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I thought the convo was all about the scape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buccal Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Oh yes so it was lol,, as the title says.But the main body of discussion surpassed the heading.I call it "relative topic shifts",,,,, meaning it relates.To start extra little topics would probably see faster dead ends.Though in saying this, it makes it a nightmare to search through later by others to find general information.Mods would be shaking their heads,,,, I know.Modern communication,,,,, "be alert, think hard, spew it out fast". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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