Internal Parasites...

[andrew.vid]

Hello everyone.

Been a long long long time since i've been active on this forum. took me a while to remember my username.

I.. need some help. Desperate help actually.

I've got 7x F1 7 bar fronties and 4 6 bars in a 4ft tank. I've noticed a few weeks ago they've lost appetite and started to get concave tummies which I had before with my colony of electric yellows.

I suspect that this is wasting disease which is no good news for me.

I've been trying to feed them metronidazole soaked pellets and bloodworms but they refuse to eat anything at all. I've dosed 3 tablets of 400mg metro into the water in hope it would do something..

I've been reading and searching everywhere on how to treat it but most say to euthanize it. While I know it most probably is the best option for them.. it's a hard choice as they costed quite a lot my mum and I would like to save them.

Previous experience with it was painful but they did get better the electric yellows, took them out every second day to force feed food down and within a month they recovered.

This doesn't seem to be working with these big guys. Does anyone know of a better method or a good antibiotic/medication that would better suit this issue?

Any advice definitely appreciated.

Thanks

Andrew

and good to be back on the forum.

[Link2Hell]

Hi Andrew and welcome back

if they aren't eating then all you can do is dose the tank

have you removed the carbon from the filter if you use it

do you have metro or dimetro ?

[andrew.vid]

Hi Andrew and welcome back

if they aren't eating then all you can do is dose the tank

have you removed the carbon from the filter if you use it

do you have metro or dimetro ?

Hey Chris! Thanks for the welcome back.

I guess I'll stick to dosing the tank than. So far, i've put 3 tabs for the 4ft tank. Would this be suitable?

and I've got metro

[lloydashton]

Are they still moving around? How often do you do water changes, what size fish are they? What where they being fed prior to stopping? and how often did you feed them? Did you change foods on them?

Frontosa can go a long time with out eating, and wasting is not that common with frontosa with good food and water conditions.

I would be doing a good 40%water change, dose of epsom salts to try clean they system out. Not feed for 3 days, then try give them a light feed of nls thera A, i find that the NLS thera A has the strongest smell for frontosa to entice them to try eat.

[Buccal]

Stay well away from blood worms,,, I won't make this long talking about blood worms.

Dimetro is 5 times stronger than Metro.

Double recommended dose in soluble format.

Dose daily for 4 days with small 20% water changes daily also.

Do not feed for treatment duration.

Once treatment is complete,,,, do a 40% water change.

Dust their food with DMZ for first two days of feeding.

If this doesn't work,,,, scrap them

Be sure you don't do any half treatments as resistance of protozoan strains are building resistance.

I suspect that resistance is building due to using Metro and not Dimetro,,,,,, as common metro is a weak treatment allowing the parasite to mutate/adapt and survive the treatment only to come out the other side almost resistant to antibiotics.

[andrew.vid]

Are they still moving around? How often do you do water changes, what size fish are they? What where they being fed prior to stopping? and how often did you feed them? Did you change foods on them?

Frontosa can go a long time with out eating, and wasting is not that common with frontosa with good food and water conditions.

I would be doing a good 40%water change, dose of epsom salts to try clean they system out. Not feed for 3 days, then try give them a light feed of nls thera A, i find that the NLS thera A has the strongest smell for frontosa to entice them to try eat.

They aren't really moving around like they used too, they just bunch up in the corner of the tank and I haven't changed direction of flow or changed the environment at all in the tank. They are between 15-25cm and were being fed NLS throughout the time we had them. they're fed twice a day morning and night and haven't changed foods for a while.

I really do hope that it is not wasting, i'm only saying because my yellows had it previously.. or so it seemed and so I was told by some people. I've done a 50% water change weekly but haven't thought about epsom salts at all! I should put some in. I shall try what you suggest and see how it goes.

Thanks for the info and advice, much appreciated.

[andrew.vid]

Stay well away from blood worms,,, I won't make this long talking about blood worms.

Dimetro is 5 times stronger than Metro.

Double recommended dose in soluble format.

Dose daily for 4 days with small 20% water changes daily also.

Do not feed for treatment duration.

Once treatment is complete,,,, do a 40% water change.

Dust their food with DMZ for first two days of feeding.

If this doesn't work,,,, scrap them

Be sure you don't do any half treatments as resistance of protozoan strains are building resistance.

I suspect that resistance is building due to using Metro and not Dimetro,,,,,, as common metro is a weak treatment allowing the parasite to mutate/adapt and survive the treatment only to come out the other side almost resistant to antibiotics.

Oh is that so! I did not know that nor heard of it before. Would I find this in chemists just like metro? I'm not too familiar...

I shall also try this method and see if they improve. and I shall stay away from bloodworms as you say. Though is there anything wrong with brine shrimps?

I've heard about resistance to anti biotics which is one thing that ruins it all.

Thanks for your suggestions and advice, it is much appreciated.

[LithoMan]

1 tablet is for 40 L

For the metro tablets you see around

400mg

[daci]

Dimetro is 5 times stronger than Metro.

Is this the fact please?

and if yes

could you kindly point me to the literature

thank you

[Buccal]

Sorry Daci,, it may not be fact,,, but Definetely at least twice as good.

Definetely 5 times better in results,,, that's for sure,,, fixes a range of other things that standard metro can't take care of.

Soluble stronger form, DMZ is well known by pros as being much stronger than standard metro.

Don't quote me on it,, but I think it was designed for aquatic application.

Prescription is needed,,,, it's not hard at all,, bucket one fish and take to a normal veterinary clinic.

Tell them you have had proffessional advice saying they have internal parasites.

And ask for DMZ,,,,, problem may be though is if they order it then bulk quantity may have to bought as some vets won't cut you a little bit from bulk amount,,,, as it's not every day they sell or need this stuff.

Be sure they have the parasites though,,, 4 days not eating and waisting look,, it's likely.

Did you put fronts into same tank after the yellows were gone ?, and are there any pleco or B/n type residents ?.

[andrew.vid]

Sorry Daci,, it may not be fact,,, but Definetely at least twice as good.

Definetely 5 times better in results,,, that's for sure,,, fixes a range of other things that standard metro can't take care of.

Soluble stronger form, DMZ is well known by pros as being much stronger than standard metro.

Don't quote me on it,, but I think it was designed for aquatic application.

Prescription is needed,,,, it's not hard at all,, bucket one fish and take to a normal veterinary clinic.

Tell them you have had proffessional advice saying they have internal parasites.

And ask for DMZ,,,,, problem may be though is if they order it then bulk quantity may have to bought as some vets won't cut you a little bit from bulk amount,,,, as it's not every day they sell or need this stuff.

Be sure they have the parasites though,,, 4 days not eating and waisting look,, it's likely.

Did you put fronts into same tank after the yellows were gone ?, and are there any pleco or B/n type residents ?.

doesn't sound too hard at all. Is it also available in normal chemists? I've got a doctor who I can get metro easily from since she's a good friend and I always get discounts for my numerous immunosuppressants. if so that would be much better, but wouldn't mind the other way.

edit: if it

They are in a completely different tank to the yellows and there are 3 common bn's in there. Is this a good or bad thing?

again, thanks for your help

[shaneo]

I would not treat a whole tank with dimetro!!!

If you choose to use it bath the fish in a bucket. I used it a colony of tropheus around 8yrs ago it killed all my good bacteria in the filters tank crashed and lost the lot.

I would treat the whole tank with metro.

Cheers Shane

[damoq]

It might be a good start to check your water parameters and make sure all is good there first before you start throwing antibiotics in the tank! If your fish are seeming listless and not eating it could be something as basic as poor water quality!

[Buccal]

B/n and pleco are will carry these parasites internally if subjected enough to the parasite.

Plecos fair better with this parasite as they don't suffer ill effects most of the time but they are carriers/spreaders.

DMZ like I said is for Aquatic use mainly and designed for live stock animal use,,, so not for humans,,, so won't find in medical situations or with doctors.

Many many years ago when I was ignorant to excessive antibiotic use,,,, I use to receive tropheus from Sydney and almost every time have problems with bloat to begin with,,,, it was said that east people used antibiotics to much making the fish weaker.

I would use metro back then, and only half the time succes was met to curing bloat.

I was put onto DMZ by a fello,,, and after that 100% success.

It is said to knock beneficial bacteria around a bit,,,, but I never had any issues like that.

If you happen to have two filters running,,,, then switch one of and switch back on after treatment.

If you have two internals,,,, put one in a bucket of tank water prior treatment and return it after treatment.

As far as I'm concerned,, these protozoans are building resistance to antibiotics due to not undergoing a full treatment to eradicate in one go,,,, if the protozoan survives it builds a resilience to antibiotics.

I consider standard metro as a 1/3 strength treatment,,,,, and if the protozoan survives it becomes stronger.

It appears to me Andrew.vid that your pretty sure it's waisting,,,, maybe go to a fish shop with a wealth of knowledge behind the desk.

Labryinth Aquariums will give you straight advice leaving you comfortable,,,, I don't know your area as to how far away from the shop.

Just comes down to how much you love your fronties.

[lloydashton]

I would not recommend jumping the gun and going crazy on medications, Firstly you can not compare the frontosa to the electric yellows, frontosa can easily got 3 - 4 weeks with out eating and not affect their health. Frontosa are actually picky eaters, and can just go off the type of food sometimes. Have you tried any other foods to entice them to eat? Fresh seafood, green peas, brine shrimp,.

Get your water tested to make sure all ok their. If all ok, i would not feed for 2 days, then try a little bit of food, and maybe try it with the lights off on the tank.. Let us know how they go.

Do they not move from the corner from being spooked? Are they sitting on the bottom of the tank or still swimming.

[lloydashton]

Can you get some pictures or a video of them.

[aqc]

andrew - fronnies are normally tough pigs of a fish. More then a few days not wanting to eat is strange however (unless she is holding).

Is the water temp too cool that they aren't active? Any other unusual behaviour ie. fast breathing, scraping on the bottom or rocks, hanging at the top or bottom, any slime coating or discolouring, clamped fins etc?

As said above, you have done water changes. Pop the temp up if too cold (ie. 26 -28 deg C). Check the pH. Seeing they are big fish, try feeding some mashed prawn or whitebait.

May not be wasting, just not eating. Until the hump starts to thin out, you have of time. Try a wormer with prazi.

[Buccal]

Haven't you guys in Sydney had a bit of a heat wave ?

Keeping in mind Tang fish come from slightly cooler water than Malawi.

Tangs also like their water a little more oxygenated.

Once the tank temp rises above 28'c, the waters capability to hold oxygen decreases substantially,,, this calls for heavier surface agitation to increase oxygen uptake.

Depending on water supply,,, usually a large water change will drop temp in emergency high temp situations.

High temp and low oxygen levels running past a few days would make your fronties appetite decrease.

Some perfectly healthy breeding fronties can appear to have slightly concave stomachs, also.

The problem with determining internal Protozoa is that different species of fish will display various symptoms.

Fronties are rather a tough fish that would hold up some time quite well to internal protozoa then go down hill rather fast later on in a waisting fashion.

Mbuna on the other hand would result in a form of bloat and possibly red sore like lesions.

Larger piscivore types of Malawi may get just the lesions.

C.leptosoma will waiste as classically known and these are more delicate and harder to cure..

All above is still at large to probability.

I do have a habit of expanding outside the boundaries of probability,,, it's more of a "just to know" thing.

Conclusions from abroad can make things very difficult to.

To reduce stray or of the mark conclusions,,, as mentioned, a complete status of water perameter, residence and set up including filtration to begin with can rule out a lot of stuff to begin with.

Does ACE have some sort of a raw template that users can grab and fill in the info required to cover everything standardly.

This does stop arguments and disagreements when stab in the dark trouble shooting.

[andrew.vid]

I would not treat a whole tank with dimetro!!!

If you choose to use it bath the fish in a bucket. I used it a colony of tropheus around 8yrs ago it killed all my good bacteria in the filters tank crashed and lost the lot.

I would treat the whole tank with metro.

Cheers Shane

I've read last night about that, that it affects the bacteria in the filters... though getting mixed answers/results. Better to take precautions than killing them off though! Sorry for your loss on the tropheus.

[andrew.vid]

It might be a good start to check your water parameters and make sure all is good there first before you start throwing antibiotics in the tank! If your fish are seeming listless and not eating it could be something as basic as poor water quality!

At first I thought my parameters were completely off course and causing them to have such symptoms but after checking, it's perfectly fine. Ammonia and nitrite 0, pH is 7.8. Done some 50% water changes but still no difference.

[andrew.vid]

B/n and pleco are will carry these parasites internally if subjected enough to the parasite.

Plecos fair better with this parasite as they don't suffer ill effects most of the time but they are carriers/spreaders.

DMZ like I said is for Aquatic use mainly and designed for live stock animal use,,, so not for humans,,, so won't find in medical situations or with doctors.

Many many years ago when I was ignorant to excessive antibiotic use,,,, I use to receive tropheus from Sydney and almost every time have problems with bloat to begin with,,,, it was said that east people used antibiotics to much making the fish weaker.

I would use metro back then, and only half the time succes was met to curing bloat.

I was put onto DMZ by a fello,,, and after that 100% success.

It is said to knock beneficial bacteria around a bit,,,, but I never had any issues like that.

If you happen to have two filters running,,,, then switch one of and switch back on after treatment.

If you have two internals,,,, put one in a bucket of tank water prior treatment and return it after treatment.

As far as I'm concerned,, these protozoans are building resistance to antibiotics due to not undergoing a full treatment to eradicate in one go,,,, if the protozoan survives it builds a resilience to antibiotics.

I consider standard metro as a 1/3 strength treatment,,,,, and if the protozoan survives it becomes stronger.

It appears to me Andrew.vid that your pretty sure it's waisting,,,, maybe go to a fish shop with a wealth of knowledge behind the desk.

Labryinth Aquariums will give you straight advice leaving you comfortable,,,, I don't know your area as to how far away from the shop.

Just comes down to how much you love your fronties.

I've read that the bn's and plecos are pretty unaffected with the parasites. But them being a carrier, now that's another thing to be wary off!

Dimetro is sounding to be a very good choice for the appropriate scenarios.

As for bacteria, would running the current canister then swapping to another canister from another, then swapping back after treatment be a good idea? Or would that pose a risk of spreading it further to my other tanks?

I have been to labrynth aquarium before. That is a good idea and some comfort would definitely help.

That is the big question.. !

[andrew.vid]

I would not recommend jumping the gun and going crazy on medications, Firstly you can not compare the frontosa to the electric yellows, frontosa can easily got 3 - 4 weeks with out eating and not affect their health. Frontosa are actually picky eaters, and can just go off the type of food sometimes. Have you tried any other foods to entice them to eat? Fresh seafood, green peas, brine shrimp,.

Get your water tested to make sure all ok their. If all ok, i would not feed for 2 days, then try a little bit of food, and maybe try it with the lights off on the tank.. Let us know how they go.

Do they not move from the corner from being spooked? Are they sitting on the bottom of the tank or still swimming.

I try not too. But metro came to mind fairly quickly so I guess that's why I used that firstly. Seems like a bad idea after reading all this though. I know they can't be compared. But colouration and the shrinking tummy's are freaking me out!

I've stopped feeding them for 4 days now and tried some brine shrimp. They saw it, went up close then went away. One though took a bite at it but spat it straight out which isn't something I'd like to see.

They are not sticking much in the corner as much anymore which I guess sheds some light. They are spreading around the tank and are slightly more active.

[andrew.vid]

Can you get some pictures or a video of them.

I will try to get some pics or a video by tonight

[andrew.vid]

andrew - fronnies are normally tough pigs of a fish. More then a few days not wanting to eat is strange however (unless she is holding).

Is the water temp too cool that they aren't active? Any other unusual behaviour ie. fast breathing, scraping on the bottom or rocks, hanging at the top or bottom, any slime coating or discolouring, clamped fins etc?

As said above, you have done water changes. Pop the temp up if too cold (ie. 26 -28 deg C). Check the pH. Seeing they are big fish, try feeding some mashed prawn or whitebait.

May not be wasting, just not eating. Until the hump starts to thin out, you have of time. Try a wormer with prazi.

So i've heard! It is a bit strange, especially comparing to my other 7 bar colony in another 4ft tank. They seem to be pretty chill. None is holding unfortunately so not a cause for the lack of appetite. Right now, i'm keeping the water to 27 degrees, the heat is making it creep up to 30..

The only other unusual behaviour I noticed but has calmed down is that the would continuously scrape or 'scratch' themselves on the glass or rocks.

As for colour, their bars aren't very prominent, they appear to be of a very dark colour.

I really hope it isn't wasting and that it is something else.

[andrew.vid]

Haven't you guys in Sydney had a bit of a heat wave ?

Keeping in mind Tang fish come from slightly cooler water than Malawi.

Tangs also like their water a little more oxygenated.

Once the tank temp rises above 28'c, the waters capability to hold oxygen decreases substantially,,, this calls for heavier surface agitation to increase oxygen uptake.

Depending on water supply,,, usually a large water change will drop temp in emergency high temp situations.

High temp and low oxygen levels running past a few days would make your fronties appetite decrease.

Some perfectly healthy breeding fronties can appear to have slightly concave stomachs, also.

The problem with determining internal Protozoa is that different species of fish will display various symptoms.

Fronties are rather a tough fish that would hold up some time quite well to internal protozoa then go down hill rather fast later on in a waisting fashion.

Mbuna on the other hand would result in a form of bloat and possibly red sore like lesions.

Larger piscivore types of Malawi may get just the lesions.

C.leptosoma will waiste as classically known and these are more delicate and harder to cure..

All above is still at large to probability.

I do have a habit of expanding outside the boundaries of probability,,, it's more of a "just to know" thing.

Conclusions from abroad can make things very difficult to.

To reduce stray or of the mark conclusions,,, as mentioned, a complete status of water perameter, residence and set up including filtration to begin with can rule out a lot of stuff to begin with.

Does ACE have some sort of a raw template that users can grab and fill in the info required to cover everything standardly.

This does stop arguments and disagreements when stab in the dark trouble shooting.

yup, one hell of a heatwave. life without an air con is pretty dreadful. the tank that these guys are in has a temp of 26-7 cooling it with a fan. I've got a canister with a spray bar spraying in the air, got two internal filters and 2 sponge filters with a blast of air. The temps are hovering high so I hope there is enough oxygenation.

I just hope that the wasting in them is only what I think they have. I'm going to have to bring one of them to an aquarium with fair knowledge to get advice on this, on top of what you guys are providing. It's all getting a bit confusing for me.. But the water quality seems fair to me, and I do notice them getting slightly more active as the days roll over. I would still like to get my hands on some dimetro. Either for these guys if they don't turn out to get better and for future proofing.

Another question regarding myself, I've heard that these parasites if they have them, can be quite contagious to humans as well? Is this true? If so, would simply wearing gloves proovide a lesser risk as having a transplant, my immune isn't quite anything.