X. ochrogeny Makola offspring with deformity. Inbreeding?

[gianniz]

ok so as title suggested. I bought 4 heathy ones from Grant couple of years ago and my luck turns out 1 boy and 3 girls! (seriously I never get this luckly!!!).

I've had 2 lots now and notice 1 or 2 in each lot seem to have some genetic damage or maybe due to my lack of fry extraction technique lol

I've noticed in the first batch one had a bent in the neck that tilts left (though as they grew up, I really can't notice it). One other fry seem to have deformed fin.

Second batch of fry was simlar.

Both batch had 15 frys.

Is this due to my lack of fry extraction skills or due to brother and sisters getting it on???

If later, replacing male can help reduce this genetic problem?

If so anyone wanna swap a male lol

[shon982]

Just cull the deformed ones

You cant stop deformities from happening, you could inbreed 10 times down the line and still have no deformities. Or you could have deformities with wild caught stock. It's completely random.

It's up to the breeder to cull deformed fry.

Although it is generally accepted to have a wide genetic variability in the long term, so getting fry from different parent females and/or males is one way to go about it. Even if they're in the same colony, each female will have genetic variability.

[Josh]

The problem with this is that unless you know which fish has the bad genes then swapping out a male may not help.

You could also be damaging the fry if you are stripping the females, if you are tumbling eggs it could be happening then also.

If you cull the bad ones and move on the good one, chances are you are just passing on the bad genes to who ever buys them off you.

Tough situation to be in.

Josh

[shon982]

Depends what kind of mutation it is...

It's the same with humans, most offspring die before they're even born. If they do live with a genetic defect they might not even reproduce. Again, if they did reproduce the same culling system occurs. Everyone can have defective genes, it just a gamble on when it will show as the phenotype. We don't see the number of defects rising in the human population.

Just cull the crap, that's it.

[Josh]

We dont see the number of genetic defects in humans because we dont breed with our close relations. Comparing Cichlids in Australia to the human population is pointless as we are aren't comparing apples to apples.

A bent fin or tail wont stop a fish from breeding. Thorichthys maculipinnis are a perfect example of how just culling bad fry doesnt stop the problem of bad genes. Fish that appeared "perfect" are constantly throwing bad fish, to the point where most fish in the hobby are now bent. There was a line of Peppermint catfish a few years ago that were bent in the tails at birth, but appeared straight as the got bigger. As adults they are near perfect and all throw bad fish. Now it doesnt matter how you switch up the fish they are all bent culling fry is pointless as you really need to cull the parents.

[shon982]

if you culled the parents of any fish that had deformities then we'd have no fish left...

Genetic defects are random, you can't predict when it'll happen so why cull the parents when it happens because of chance? yes they might carry the bad gene but so what?

You could have parents with albino genes which never produce a single albino offspring

[KIL355]

Finally good to here someone else is having Makola drammas,

I have culled about 400-500 fry from my Makolas, tail fin closing up and side fins bending over like chicken wings???? adults are excellent quality??? four females hold together and produce 30 fry each time?

I have been at a loss as i dont know what the problem is, i thought it was low calcium maybe, but raised calcium levels... i have 50 grown up now that are no good??? and another 60+ growing up?? maybe something in water???parents originally come in from Grant, but shouldnt make a difference...

david....

[shon982]

Maybe it's old age?

[Josh]

If a line of fish is no good and is throwing genetic defects then that line of fish no good. Its that simple. Just because one fry out of 30 doesnt show a defect doesnt mean its fry wont. In this case the parents should be culled, if we have no fish we, we have no fish. Whats the point in keeping fish that are deformed?

It seems in this case it is not random, nor was it in the Peppermints and the Ellioti.

[KIL355]

My Makolas are old but, Just looked at my Kilesa fry and same thing with those??? they are only 10cm.. still very young.. i dont think its genetics..

[tangka]

Sorry to hear David that's a lot of fry to be culling. Luckily I haven't had one fry to cull with mine. Just checked all my fry again after reading this and all seem fine.

I have although had a 50% survival rate with these when removing from a egg tumbler to a small tank. This was probably due to stress, these fish being very sensitive from a early age??

Daniel

[shon982]

I agree David.

What about all the fish in the wild, do we cull them if they ever throw out a deformed fry? we just never know they have thrown out deformed fry because it's naturally culled. That's not how genetics and breeding works.

In this case, we line breed better specimens, adding more genetic variability but throwing out any deformities. We are selecting for perfectly formed fish in other words.

The adults are not deformed and the majority of the fry are perfectly fine, so no need to cull them.

[Tangcrazy]

I've had one makola fry out of about 100 I've had and only one with a bent tale

[Euan Edwards]

Kill355 - if you have that many fry to play with, try experimenting with batches of them raising under different conditions. Gives you options to nail it. I can't recall having sifter deformities but have had bent fronnies from letting the wrigglers sit too long in one position when the tumbling. So I now give it a bit more air to keep them bouyant. We used to get a few 'spinners' though.

As for old fish, we don't know how long that particular line has been bred overseas. WC may not always be WC. Unfortunately the best stock is long picked out before our boys even make an order. But still exciting to keep these fish eh mate of E's

[gianniz]

Kil355 you got your parents from 1 source, same as me and since I wanted similar sized fish, they probably could have been from same litter.

I've searched through ace and found other species have similar problems.

Now some swears by changing a male will almost surely fix the problem (making sure the new male isn't from the same source).

While others say it wont fix it.

Personally I think changing male should lower this problems.

PS. Don't get me started with peppermints. Seriously everyone of them I have purchased or seen have fin problem or bent back, nose problems.

[gianniz]

bye the way the chicken wring issue I have seen on C. Macrops. Though as it grew up the fins straightened up.

[KIL355]

I was going to change males till i noticed my Kilesa fry not 100%???, im not sure if its maybe even the fry savers?? maybe not enough water flow through them?? they are the fish cave ones?? need to start trying new methods as i have about 200 Foai fry growing and they are perfect... just the sand sifters??

David....

[tangs4me]

it sounds like the obvious scenario is that the particular bloodline[ sandys] you are having trouble with have been linebred to much over seas .simple conclusion try and get a new male preferably imported if the same thing happenns ur females are line bred to much and should be culled simple .time to start again. not meant to upset any one

[gianniz]

probably not related but I have noticed the females will eat minutes after spawning and they eat during the entire term.

I am worried the hard food (some with sharp edges) will damage the eggs or cause problems later on?? I am considering presoaking from now on.

[Isachooky]

Guys, I very much doubt that the bloodline of the Makola is at fault.

I got fry from Grant when they first became available, these are beautiful adults that although getting on in age are still breeding and all fry are 100%. I split the colony a while back and Daniel bought them. He is reporting no problems with the fry shape. I currently have fry from 3cm through to the next generation of adults with no issues.

David, as mentioned before I would say there is something wrong with your system or water supply to be affecting the sandsifters. A Sydney hobbyist had the same issue with his shelldwellers years ago. I don't know what the result was be he is no longer on the forum. Maybe something in your water pipes but obviously try some more air in fry savers or try a different brand. I use the jemhco ones.

Gianniz, sandsifter fry can become damaged or deformed in the mouth especially by young inexperience parents. This sounds like what is happening with your makola. I had the same problem with the first few spawns of my Ndole Bay. They got better with each spawn and I now have no issues. Inadequate operation of egg tumblers or when the hobbyist is collecting the mouthful from the parents can also cause damage to fry.

As Shon has said, destroy the affected fish.

Cheers Tony

[gianniz]

Hi Tony,

Your post makes sense to me.

I am very hopeless in extraction. (I kill atleast 2-3 in the process, mostly getting squashed or chopped by mother!)

I don't extract it until it is fully formed and free swimming.

PS anyone know how to stop the male from freaking out! Some times it freaks out so much it darts around the tank at speed then almost passes out! lol is this normal? girls aren't as much.

[brucem]

Maybe try catching them after they have gone to sleep. Turn the lights off for an hour or two at night, then switch them back on and catch your fish.

I catch mine during the day. But I usually move my nets around the tank very slowly, because they do dart about ....and jump!!