Scratching fish

[Rod54]

Ich can still live in gills. If the fish have been pre-exposed to it they most probably won't show external signs of it.

I also believe it's an external parasite and have successfully treated fish purchased from other people with this scratching using Seachem Cupramine (it's half does in FW for 2 weeks).

I'm going to get a parasitic treatment & run it's course & hope it helps. I forgot to mention earlier that the fish stop scratching after a day or so if they are moved to a different tank. That led me to think it was something in the decor. As I said I disinfected the tank & replaced everything with aquarium bought stuff. The only thing I kept was the substrate as it was proper aquarium gravel. Could my substrate be the problem?

Mmmm......if they stop scratching after being moved....and the substrate is the only thing not changed....then it may very well be the problem.

"Proper" aquarium gravel is in most cases sourced from commercial gravel suppliers who deal with all sorts of other materials....so contamination is possible

If you undertake a couple of courses of medication and the problem isn't solved then it has to be the substrate

At least you will know you've covered all the bases!!!

[ozarowana]

Sorry missed that bit... if it doesn't come back after some time in the "different tank" then it is definately something in the other tank.

I guess it is a process of elimination if you don't have a microscope. I have seen discus in a bare tank scatching, which didn't respond to Sterazin. So not all treatments will clear up the problem.

[JPM1976]

Are you sure just dosing your fish with some different medication one after the other is the thing to do?I've had cichlids for 10years and they occasionally scratch against ornaments and rocks.I think your dosing your fish for nothing. All you will end up doing is lowering there immune system making them prone to diseases from over medicating.

[Maskedman]

Thanks for the input JPM1976 but I'm not a total novice myself. I have 12 tanks & over 300 fish. Trust me, something is wrong in this tank specifically. I'm also not hitting it with one medication after the other. That's how you kill, not cure. If you will notice I have been working on this problem for well over a year. I have used a total of four medications over this time & it will take me another 3-5months to go through & try the other medicine recommendations made to me IF I decide they are necessary & worth trying. The fish scratch bad enough that they rip off large patches of scales & give themselves lacerations around the head, giving opening for other infections. Fortunately whatever is causing the scratching doesn't affect the healing ability of my fish as thier wounds always heal up quickly with no problems & no medication & I do not remove to a hospital tank either. 15 fish scratching every minute or two is hardly the odd one occasionally either.

Fact is that the medication doesn't lower the immune system either, it's the simple fact that most medications are highly toxic to fish in high enough doses & multiple doses can leave lethal amounts of toxins in the water that you can't remove without a lot of work. Chopping and changing medications is no good for the fish for the same reason as for us, adding a new medication on top of one already in use can change the affect of both medications leading to fatalities, (think Heath Ledgar). The constantly changing water parameters also lead to stress in the fish which is what lowers the immune system as you refered to & let's the problem get a better foothold, even under medication. Thanks for your opinion though.

[Link2Hell]

Hi Maskedman

Sure is a good question

are the fish flashing just their body off substrate and rocks etc

or is it more like rubbing the head and gill area

Wise method of elimination you have taken by going over the

results after trials of each medication and leaving a recovery

period between treatments

It's sooooo annoying when you have just one tank that wants

to be annoying when it shows the same as the ones that are

all running well

It would seem that it comes down to chemical or parasite

I'm guessing that you arent using çrushed coral and it's only gravel

as sometimes small coral particles can cause irritations in gills but

this sounds more intense than what this can cause

Is the gravel just normal rolled river gravel or is there porous

media mixed in it that could be releasing any chemicals

I have seen volcanic scouria that released sulpher and had similar

symptoms

You mention the irritaion decreased when the fish were transfered to

an isolation tank and the only conmmon point was the substrate you

reused so I'm leaning towards chemical leakage from the substrate

are any other tanks using the same substrate

By process of elimination I would say strip the tank again disinfect

and dump the gravel never a fun thing but it's what your notes lead

to being the common denominator

BTW what are the four meds you have trialled in treating this ?

Keep us posted with your progress

Chris

[Maskedman]

Yes just straight gravel. Heaps of limestone decor & a few shells provide my buffering. Not sure of gravels exact origins, it came from my local aquarium. It just comes in a white sack with AQUARIUM SAND in big letters like a company name & a description of 3mm natural red gravel hand written down the bottom. I have it in 2 other tanks & don't have any problem with them. Nearly every Perth aquarium has the exact same stuff in stock. I have found the odd little shell in amongst it but nothing that looks porous or metallic & nothing I outright recognise as dangerous.

The fish are scratching usually aroud the head/gill area so I had always been leaning towards a gill parasite or irritation. I treated for Whitespot to eliminate an aggressive strain of that as the problem. So far I have used the usual blue & greens on them (mainly for the whitespot), they have been dosed with Tri-sulphate courses & given Melafix, (more a preventative than a cure). I'm giving the Sterazin a go now, (1st dose this morn). They did get some EasyLife FFM but that's really just a conditioner that is supposed to do everything but doesn't seem to do a very good job at any of it.

I've pretty much come to the same conclusion that I'm going to have to strip this one & disinfect, but I'm going to run the Sterazin it's full course & see how it goes. Does Clout do anything Sterazin doesn't? I haven't used it before. If it's targeting something different I will probably give it a go in a few weeks if the Sterazin doesn't do it for me. Failing that I guess I will have a nice refitting story to put up.

[Link2Hell]

Yeah sucks butt when this happens

I didn't think they could still import Clout

I've used it many years ago and from memory you had a

blue reminder of it that was near impossible to remove

I can see why it looks like a Protozoan or parasite problem

by the reaction of the fish

Keep us posted on the Sterazin results

Chris

[JPM1976]

Thanks for the input JPM1976 but I'm not a total novice myself. I have 12 tanks & over 300 fish. Trust me, something is wrong in this tank specifically. I'm also not hitting it with one medication after the other. That's how you kill, not cure. If you will notice I have been working on this problem for well over a year. I have used a total of four medications over this time & it will take me another 3-5months to go through & try the other medicine recommendations made to me IF I decide they are necessary & worth trying. The fish scratch bad enough that they rip off large patches of scales & give themselves lacerations around the head, giving opening for other infections. Fortunately whatever is causing the scratching doesn't affect the healing ability of my fish as thier wounds always heal up quickly with no problems & no medication & I do not remove to a hospital tank either. 15 fish scratching every minute or two is hardly the odd one occasionally either.

Fact is that the medication doesn't lower the immune system either, it's the simple fact that most medications are highly toxic to fish in high enough doses & multiple doses can leave lethal amounts of toxins in the water that you can't remove without a lot of work. Chopping and changing medications is no good for the fish for the same reason as for us, adding a new medication on top of one already in use can change the affect of both medications leading to fatalities, (think Heath Ledgar). The constantly changing water parameters also lead to stress in the fish which is what lowers the immune system as you refered to & let's the problem get a better foothold, even under medication. Thanks for your opinion though.

Well i didn't know it has been over a year, as it wasn't stated , so what am i suppose to guess now? You also never stated there rippin goff there scales there scratching that bad!(15 fish scratching every minute or two is hardly the odd one occasionally either)Also wasn't stated.Plus too much anti biotics in humans lower immune system, so how wouldn't it lower it for fish? So thanks for your opinion though.Good luck with your fish, i wont bother next time!

[chorrylan]

I treated for Whitespot to eliminate an aggressive strain of that as the problem. So far I have used the usual blue & greens on them (mainly for the whitespot), they have been dosed with Tri-sulphate courses & given Melafix, (more a preventative than a cure). I'm giving the Sterazin a go now, (1st dose this morn).

... Does Clout do anything Sterazin doesn't? I haven't used it before.

Tri-sulphate is more of an antibacterial than an anti-parasite isn't it?

Melafix is more about fungal problems and making the tank smell nice :-)

Sterazin has piperazine citrate and formaldehyde

Clout has malachite green, trichlorphon and dimtridazole

that means clout has a broader spectrum of target species from internal protozoa (dimetridazole) thru whitespotty stuff (malachite green) and larger flukes (trichlorphon)

Sterazin is trying to deal with the bigger critters in that lineup.

In theory that makes Sterazin attractive for external parasites (the kind of critter that could cause the symptoms you describe) as I don't think it's a fairly uncommon lineup of chemicals and hence less likely for them to have built up a tolerance (whereas Trichlorphon tolerance appears to be fairly common).

My personal experience unfortunately is that Sterazin has been less useful against flukey-type critters than I would have expected but then so also has Clout.

I like to keep "Jungle - parasite clear tank buddies" on hand for this kind of thing (eg if imported fish show signs of unexpected hitch hikers) as it's quite broad spectrum (based on praziqantel, diflurbenzuron, metronidazole and acriflavine) and a fair bit stronger than Clout.

Unfortunately it's

- not sold by anyone here (though the active-ingredients are ok),

- awfully heavy and hence expensive to import,

- and most frustratingly of all AQIS seized my last purchase and I'm still trying to convince the manufacturer to ante up with a declaration that they didn't use anything stupid as a filler int he tablets

[ozarowana]

I was told about an aggressive ich strain a few years ago that was resistant to all the commercial products. Needed copper and trichlorfon at the same time.

Adding to the meds mentioned above:

Triple sulphur is also used for ich, fin rot and columnaris.

Piperazine citrate is for nematode type worms (levimasole too).

Dimtridazole and metronidazole are for protozoa (hexamita).

Trichlorphon is an organophosphate used for flukes and achor worm etc(it's the active ingediant in lawn grub killer).

Malachite green is a dye for ich and fungus.

Acriflavine is an antisceptic used for bacterial and some parasitic infections (velvet).

Formaldehyde is mainly used for external parasites.

Prazi is for tapeworm... IMO it works poorly on flukes.

Googled diflurbenzuron and it's an organophosphate too so maybe similar to trichlorfon/dylox.

I'm assuming the tank is seperate and not on a system? If it's a parasite then theoretically cleaning out the tank won't solve the problem, as they are on the fish too. Do you know anyone with a microscope?

[Maskedman]

Sorry that you seem to have been offended JPM1976 & I do apologise if you are. However if you were to read all of my posts just on page one you will see that I have in fact stated that the scratching is so bad that scales are being removed & that I have also stated that I have been working on this problem for over a year. So again, I'm sorry if your offended mate but how about actually reading through things properly before you spit your dummy next time.

I hope I can help you out in the future if you have a problem.

[Maskedman]

Chorrylan & Ozarowana - I'm getting a headache just trying to work out how to pronounce the names of half those active ingredients!! I'll print out the page & point, might be easier on me!!

Thanks for the info guys, it's bound to come in handy. I'm not going to get too carried away with the medicating though. I might try a broader spectrum parasitic treatment if the sterazin doesn't do it but I have that feeling in my gut that says I'm going to have to start this particular tank from scratch.

Will keep you informed & as soon as I work out how to resize my pics (having probs with windows), I'll post some of my tanks & fish in the photography section for you all to check out.

[akroyd]

Sorry if this confuses things even more, but;

IME the most likely problem is flukes. Probably gill flukes which are more difficult to treat than skin flukes because they lay eggs. Flukes are very common on cichlids.

The best advice I've seen is get a microscope.

I've had the luck to have a microscope, thousands of fish, and thousands of flukes. IME none of the recommended treatments will work in practice. That includes formalin at the rate used in Sterazin, trichlorphon, copper sulphate (never used cupramine, though) and all of the other treatments mentioned.

For my situation the only effective treatment was formalin at 150ppm for a short bath. It is very dangerous to use as it strips oxygen from the water, and forms highly toxic paraformaldehyde with time.

I did find levamisole worked quite well, but was just too expensive for me as I need to routinely treat 40000L. In your situation, I think it's your best bet, and it's use actually improves fishes immune response, which has been said is a concern with some treatments.

I'd use levamisole at 15ml per 100L every second day for three treatments to treat gill flukes on tropical fish.

[Maskedman]

Thanks for the advice akroyd. The kids have a microscope in the back of a cupboard somewhere. Don't know if I will get that carried away though. I have managed to transfer all but my Eye-biters, 4 peacocks & one leleupi to other tanks. The removed fish are in a quarantine tank being treated with Sterazin. If I don't solve the problem soon I will just catch the rest & put them in quarantine to while I redo thier display tank.

[chorrylan]

Chorrylan & Ozarowana - I'm getting a headache just trying to work out how to pronounce the names of half those active ingredients!!

he he if you check the label on a bottle of clout you'll find it gets worse.

Instead of "malachite green, trichlorphon and dimtridazole" they decided to be funny sods and listed the molecular formulaes for 'em instead:

"4-[p-(dimethylamino)-)O-phenylbenzylidene)-2,5-cyclohexadien-1-xylidene dimethylammonium chloride,

dimethyl (2,2,2,Trichloro-1-Hydroxyethyl) Phosphonate and

1,2,dimethyl-5-nitroimidazole"

(I think the idea is it's supposed to confuse the parasites into submission)

[jslayz]

Hi

Please try cupramine.

I had a naaaasty columnaris which nothing could shift.

My poor fish were having their fins 'dissolve and heaps of scratching all the time.

Tried Trisulfa, then Interpet Antiparasite with no luck then cupramine and bam after 2 weeks fins were growing back and no more scratching.

I am keeping a bottle on hand but am 3 months down the track and all good.

I just removed it with water changes.

Good luck, really frustrating when you can't seem to find a treatment.

J

[Maskedman]

Well the Sterazin didn't work & I have had a gutful of the problem, so the tank has been stripped & the fish moved on to a friends tank for a couple of months while I rebuild my tank.

It must be something in the decor as all of the fish have stopped scratching after 2 days in thier new home. I'm just going to chuck everything, sterilise the tank & start again from the bare glass. New filters, heaters etc.

Thanks to everyone for all of the advice. I have learnt a few new things to file away in the memory banks for future use.