Water change heating

[Euan Edwards]

I need some more ideas on heating water for water changes.

At the moment I am leaning towards one of those instant water heaters for underneath sinks.

But want to put it out there first before I commit.

Some background:

I need to do water changes direct from a mains tap connection.

I need to change up to 5000 litres at a time.

I want to take the edge off mainly during winter in Qld. So probably only need to raise the tap water by a few degrees.

The water already passes through micron filters.

Inline heaters are too small.

Would like something that heated "instantly" to 25 C

With the undersink units I beleive their min temp is 30. So would have to plumb in cold afterwards to lower the temp maybe.

Anyway what other ideas are there out there ???

Keen on actual working situations, or simply ideas.

[genetik_defekt]

you might wanna post more about your actual set up. if your doing 5000 liters at a time im going to assume your system is between 20 and 30 thousand liters. In my opinion if this is the case then its relative to any water change around the 25%mark. If your system is around 25 degrees and you add 25% cold water at roughly 10 degrees at a slow pace Eg. trickle over a few hours then heating should not be a problem.

Alternatively, if you are keeping racks in a designated fish room you can fill a large container, say 200 liters (barrel) with water and place in it 2 heaters, say 2 300 watt jagers. You can then run your hose from your tap into the drum, having your hose(s) coiled up inside the drum. Fill your drum with water and have your heaters set above your desired tank temp, say 35 degrees. then run your hose to your tank. with slow water movement throught the hose to your tank the transfer of heat throught the water to the hose will heat your designated tank water. This would be your cheapest alternative and you always have it there ready to go.

Just remebr to have a small air stone on the barrel otherwise the water will stagnate and start to smell.

[Euan Edwards]

The water changes are up to 50% each week. I like very clean water With more than one system plus individual holding/quarrantine/special tanks.

Slow water changes are not possible because the time it would take to heat 5000L slowly would mean me being in one spot longer than I am allowed I was going to but 9L/min restrictors on the incoming water but that would take 9 odd hours to change all. Call me paranoid but I don't like water being on without me watching.

No water storage available in the room, just straight from the tap and through the micron filter.

Basically I want more control of temperature while using as little time as possible

Some of the fish are no problem with the temp changes when changing water. But some others are quite sensitive.

you might wanna post more about your actual set up. if your doing 5000 liters at a time im going to assume your system is between 20 and 30 thousand liters. In my opinion if this is the case then its relative to any water change around the 25%mark. If your system is around 25 degrees and you add 25% cold water at roughly 10 degrees at a slow pace Eg. trickle over a few hours then heating should not be a problem.

Alternatively, if you are keeping racks in a designated fish room you can fill a large container, say 200 liters (barrel) with water and place in it 2 heaters, say 2 300 watt jagers. You can then run your hose from your tap into the drum, having your hose(s) coiled up inside the drum. Fill your drum with water and have your heaters set above your desired tank temp, say 35 degrees. then run your hose to your tank. with slow water movement throught the hose to your tank the transfer of heat throught the water to the hose will heat your designated tank water. This would be your cheapest alternative and you always have it there ready to go.

Just remebr to have a small air stone on the barrel otherwise the water will stagnate and start to smell.

[dexxl]

could try using a heat pump. some swimming pool projects i've worked on, heat pumps proved the most economical vs gas heating vs solar

maybe doing water changes at 2:30 or 3pm would also help, since the sun is hottest at 2pm here in qld winter.

[Euan Edwards]

Hadn't thought of a heat pump, will look into that as well.

Unfortunately at work till 5pm.

could try using a heat pump. some swimming pool projects i've worked on, heat pumps proved the most economical vs gas heating vs solar

maybe doing water changes at 2:30 or 3pm would also help, since the sun is hottest at 2pm here in qld winter.

[CThompson]

How does such parameters as the pH and KH come straight from the tap? Are they suitable? That is, there are more water parameters to adjust than just tempreture.

If you're using micron filters does this take out chlorine and chloramines? I assume it does.

When we turn our hot water taps on in our homes we get hot water straight from the tap. Your issue will be the volume needed if the hot water is coming from an off-peak water tank/supply, where the tank is smaller than the volume you want.

Not an expert in this area, maybe a plumber could field this idea better, but hot water can also be supplied via instant heating with gas (so no limitations on volume), if so can the heat be preset to a particular level? I would think yes.

I would ask what winter temperatures do you get with your water? If not below 22 degrees perhaps you could run your fish tanks at a lower temp to match the supply if not less than 22?

I agree I also like to be present when filling tanks. I fill my water change barrels and walk away as far as hearing distance for the “bath alert” to be heard once they fill.

[Euan Edwards]

How does such parameters as the pH and KH come straight from the tap? Are they suitable? That is, there are more water parameters to adjust than just tempreture.

Salts are added into the sump for the Tanganyikans, most others pH KH etc acceptable, low pH spp add RO water as a mix.

If you're using micron filters does this take out chlorine and chloramines? I assume it does.

They filter out 99% of them

When we turn our hot water taps on in our homes we get hot water straight from the tap. Your issue will be the volume needed if the hot water is coming from an off-peak water tank/supply, where the tank is smaller than the volume you want.

The hot water straight from the tap are too hot at the lowest setting.

Not an expert in this area, maybe a plumber could field this idea better, but hot water can also be supplied via instant heating with gas (so no limitations on volume), if so can the heat be preset to a particular level? I would think yes.

The instant hot water system so far is the option I was going with. But I want to see if there is a better method before I commit $1k to have it up and running. The other problem with the instant unit is the temp controllers only go down as far as 37C. The solution I could find was to plumb in cold after the heater to mix to a lower temp then run at different setting to find the correct temp with flow by experiment. Which is painful The other option was to get a smaller unit which can not handle the flow rate for "normal bath water temps" thus having a lower flow temp. I would prefer better control

I would ask what winter temperatures do you get with your water? If not below 22 degrees perhaps you could run your fish tanks at a lower temp to match the supply if not less than 22?

I have not checked winter temps of the mains, I should of last year but didn't get around to it But our min air temp is 9C so I figure water temp a little higher.

I agree I also like to be present when filling tanks. I fill my water change barrels and walk away as far as hearing distance for the “bath alert” to be heard once they fill.

I know I keep throwing it back It is how I hash out ideas

I'm trying to find a simple heating unit with good control of temp that will link directly to mains

But unless I discuss it with more people I may have not thought of something

Thanks for the ideas so far

[dobbin4]

If you had a 10,000lt water change tank ( $100) that would fix your weekly changes if your in a fish room which surely you would with that amount of tanks/ water.

Just a powerhead to pump to your tanks.

22/26dec would not be hard to get to in your area most of the year, More likely keeping temp down would be a problem?

You have a week for the water to rasie to temp and that long to adjust ph etc.

Man 5000lts a week?

I would not be doing such large changes.

Or do you keep discus?Then i understand.

[CThompson]

Salts are added into the sump for the Tanganyikans, most others pH KH etc acceptable, low pH spp add RO water as a mix.

Maybe you should step back a bit and also revaluate this method at the same time as you try to sort out your heating issue?

I know a lot of people will add their water additives in this manner – but it can be done better. You are already switched on regarding water conditions (why you want such big water changes), and the downside to adding your water additives in this manner is the fluctuations this method will cause to the water in the tanks and the stress, wether perceived or not, to the fish.

I know I keep throwing it back It is how I hash out ideas

If it wasn’t for this excellent attitude I wouldn’t respond further.

Water changes/quality are key to our fish keeping, and there are only + to our fish that a large REGULAR water change can bring wether or not they are discus or Africans. Why should it be a benefit to discus and not Africans? They are both fish. So as far as your goal of large water changes go, it is a good thing.

However, it is NOT good if you don’t match what you put in with what you take out. That means not only temperature but pH, KH etc.

Dobbin4’s suggestion is the best you can do to tackle all these parameters.

You can install a ballcock to automatically turn the water off when it is full so there will be no standing around while it is being filled. You can turn the mains on to fill it, add the salts and other water conditioners to adjust your water, heat the container with one or more aquarium water heaters and plumb it with a 10,000 lph (or what ever size) pump. How fast will this facilitate completion of filling the tanks back up!!! And it will be all ready for your next water change.

This is simple (KISS) and effective, the only downside is the area this container will take up. If it is well insulated (do it yourself) this container can be situated outside.

Hope that helps.

[Euan Edwards]

You know there is only so much space a married person is allowed. So the wronghead decided the more tanks the better Thus no water change drums inside the garage

I do wish in the future to put a slimline water tank outside to premix the salts in the future. Mixing in the sump is not ideal true. I thought of continuous water changes with a dosing pump. But I also beleive in the KISS principle. Even if I do not always follow it The last S is the best Maybe I need to speed up that slimline a little

Once I get around to the slimline I still wanted to heat as cheap as possible.

So the idea was to work a system that would allow flexability.

I did find a instant water heater for caravans on Ebay which the guy reckons can be set to any temperature. But both Rennai and Rheem have told me a min of 37C for theirs.

SO how does this sound;

mains to slimline with float valve,

slimline to pressure pump,

pressure pump to micron filter

to instant heater to tanks ???

Downsides ???

Salts are added into the sump for the Tanganyikans, most others pH KH etc acceptable, low pH spp add RO water as a mix.

Maybe you should step back a bit and also revaluate this method at the same time as you try to sort out your heating issue?

I know a lot of people will add their water additives in this manner – but it can be done better. You are already switched on regarding water conditions (why you want such big water changes), and the downside to adding your water additives in this manner is the fluctuations this method will cause to the water in the tanks and the stress, wether perceived or not, to the fish.

I know I keep throwing it back It is how I hash out ideas

If it wasn’t for this excellent attitude I wouldn’t respond further.

Water changes/quality are key to our fish keeping, and there are only + to our fish that a large REGULAR water change can bring wether or not they are discus or Africans. Why should it be a benefit to discus and not Africans? They are both fish. So as far as your goal of large water changes go, it is a good thing.

However, it is NOT good if you don’t match what you put in with what you take out. That means not only temperature but pH, KH etc.

Dobbin4’s suggestion is the best you can do to tackle all these parameters.

You can install a ballcock to automatically turn the water off when it is full so there will be no standing around while it is being filled. You can turn the mains on to fill it, add the salts and other water conditioners to adjust your water, heat the container with one or more aquarium water heaters and plumb it with a 10,000 lph (or what ever size) pump. How fast will this facilitate completion of filling the tanks back up!!! And it will be all ready for your next water change.

This is simple (KISS) and effective, the only downside is the area this container will take up. If it is well insulated (do it yourself) this container can be situated outside.

Hope that helps.

[dobbin4]

Most will say that using the warm water all run through the heater is really a no no for your fish.

Copper pipes,etc. Hard on your fish!!!! Without Ph etc as Craig says.

You will find as you say you cant get these heaters down to the 24 dec or so needed.

Think the Ebayer is having you on. Most dont even get to 37 dec as far as I'm aware.

So you would somehow need to change the thermostat on the heater to get this temp.

Easyer said than done.

But you could get offpeck power to save on the bill large bill your going to have.

Then you would have to do your water change at this time, think its from 9pm to 6am.

Someone may know the offpeck time's better than me.

Not something i would do.

Can you find room to go above tanks but you could never hold the weight of the water needed.

Craig makes sense with what he says.

Seems a lot of trouble better with a couple less tanks.

How high is your room? Have you worked out what size container / tank you will need to hold whats needed?

Good luck

[oz_gooner]

Inline heating is good and expensive. Also have you thought about what would happen if it stopped working and you were pumping direct to your fish tanks. I would recirculate back into the treated water tank when at temp pump to the fish tanks. Instead of heating with elec or gas you could run poly pipe, the black stuff, onto your roof and use the sun for heating. A pump can be used to recirculate the water back to the treated water tank while you are not at home. Timers and temp controllers are wonderful things. The volume of water in the tank will hold it's temp for a long time. Insulation will help. This will reduce your power consumption as well. Go the whole hog and get a solar powered pump. Use the inline heater as a top up.

[Barrie]

Mains water to slime line controlled with float valve. Slim line (outside) can be filtered and have water adjusted with additives. When ready for water change (after 1 week) pump water from slim line through instananeous hot water service and back into slim line. Continue until your water in the slim line is at the correct temp. You could insulate your slime line although I don't know if it is worth it. After a few water changes you will soon learn the time it takes to heat the water in the slim line. When ready pump pre-heated water from slim line into fish tanks. Refill slim line in preparation for next weeks water change.

Benefits:- Aged and filtered water, additives already mixed and water is of a consistent quality, temp whatever you want.

Personally I have never had any issues from copper pipes etc but you will have to gauge that one for yourself.

[Euan Edwards]

I think you have found me a solution A simple one that I did not think of

A plumber mate told me that PVC is not suitible for drinking water yet copper is. Apparently PVC leaches lead. I have not checked or verified yet, but food for thought. Considering the number of people using PVC pipes on their systems.

Thanks for all the imput much appreciated

Mains water to slime line controlled with float valve. Slim line (outside) can be filtered and have water adjusted with additives. When ready for water change (after 1 week) pump water from slim line through instananeous hot water service and back into slim line. Continue until your water in the slim line is at the correct temp. You could insulate your slime line although I don't know if it is worth it. After a few water changes you will soon learn the time it takes to heat the water in the slim line. When ready pump pre-heated water from slim line into fish tanks. Refill slim line in preparation for next weeks water change.

Benefits:- Aged and filtered water, additives already mixed and water is of a consistent quality, temp whatever you want.

Personally I have never had any issues from copper pipes etc but you will have to gauge that one for yourself.