New Life Spectrum Cichlid Pellets to Tropheus?

[CThompson]

Wondering if anyone is using this stuff as their prime food source to feed Tropheus?

Craig

[Nigel]

Hi Craig i strongly advise you not to feed this food to tropheus. My advice is to only feed them spiralina flake nothing else. I only feed the ones i get OSI does not matter if thay are wild caught or tank breed thats all thay get.

[CThompson]

Thanks Nigel.

Could you please inform me what sort of phosphate levelOSI has listed on their container?

I am using Sera Flora (which has phosphate listed at 1.1% from memory), and I have been getting really high phosphate reading in my tank, even though I am doing 2/3 weekly water changes, as high as 3ppm. I figure it must be coming from the food. It drops down to 1ppm with water change, and if I use a phosphate sponge, down as far as .5ppm. But I haven't the time to put a phosphate remover (Aquasonic's) in and out of my tank, and am looking for another source of staple food for my fish with less phosphate and suitable for Tropheus. I can get Flora cheaply, but haven't got a cheap supply for OSI, hence my question about the Spectrum food.

I've been told once that the Spectrum food has been formulated in such a way as to be suitable for vegetarians and meat eaters? But have never had that confirmed from other sources.

Craig

[Nigel]

The level of phosphate is 0.6%. I asked Seachem in the US about spectrum and thay advised me not to feed it to tropheus. Also i would not feed pellets to them thay have trouble digesting them and it could cause blot.

[CThompson]

Thanks Nigel, you've talked me out of them.

Craig

[CThompson]

Nigel,

At work on the SCP (-:, and decided to see if I got the same advice from Seachem in regards to the use of Spectrum Cichlid Pellets and Tropheus as you did.

I didn't have the food with me at work and assumed that Seachem must be the manufactures of this product as you mentioned this was who you contacted and were informed that the food was not suitable for Tropheus.

This is the reply I got back from them;

"Dear Craig,

We do not manufacture or sell this food. You will be better off

contacting the company direct through their web site

http://www.nlpublish.com/fishfood/guarantee/ as tropheus require a

diet high in vegetable/plant matter. You should ask for Pablo as he

is responsible for the formulation of this food and he would be best

suited to answer your question.

--

Best Regards,

Seachem Technical Support,rb~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM"

I followed their advice, contacted Pablo, and got a response the same day, I will copy it below as it is only short;

"Craig, To answer your questions, yes! you can feed Spectrum to your Tropheus

safely. I have been raising African cichlids for a living for 30 years. This

food was formulated to meet all requirement for all kinds of fish,

regardless what they eat in the wild, as the matter of fact, for optimum

result, feed Spectrum exclusively you will be pleasantly surprise. Many

Tropheus breeders use Spectrum with great result. Please go to other website

www.cichlid-forum.com and out comments from people who use it. I could

almost write a book regarding your questions, it will be very

complicated-hands on experience is your best teacher. For clarification, I

am not saying you could use other brands of similar food without any

problem, most likely than not your Tropheus would get bloat! Too many junk

foods out there. Pablo 01/16/04"

Though the last couple of sentences are a little confusing, from what Peblo is saying, backs up what I heard about this food. I was told more or less when it first come on to the market that all fish require the same amount of nutrients from the food they ingest, regardless as to wether they eat meat or vegies. I was told their stomachs have different ways (long or short gut for example) of achieving this balance, and regardless as to wether they are carnivores or herbivores, their stomachs’ process Spectrum Cichlid Pellets, due to the way it has been formulated and manufactured, and take out the appropriate amount of nutrients for its individual dietary requirements.

I would be interested to hear other Tropheus keepers comments on this food, or the above information.

I would think that letting the pellets soak for a bit before introducing them to the fish so they expand to their "wet" size, should overcome problems fish may have with pellets?

Craig

[Jim]

Craig i have been feeding my T.bemba on NLS (small pellet) for about 8 weeks now without any problem.

OSI spirulina morning feed / NLS evening feed soaking the pellets for 15-20 min as they swell up a fair bit.

From what i have noticed it conditions the females much quicker.

[Nigel]

Craig thay are your fish and i guess you can feed them what ever you like. I can only tell you what i know from years of experience and i would not feed pellets of any kind to tropheus. I have had a lot of tropheus pass through my hands over the years both tank breed and wild caught and all i ever feed them is 0SI siralina flake. All i try to do is give good advice if you choose not to take it that is up to you. In the short term the tropheus my be fine on pellets but sooner or later thay will get bloat and in my opinion die.

[E4G13M4N]

I was told more or less when it first come on to the market that all fish require the same amount of nutrients from the food  they ingest, regardless as to wether they eat meat or vegies.  I was told their stomachs have different ways (long or short gut for example) of achieving this balance, and regardless as to wether they are carnivores or  herbivores, their stomachs’ process Spectrum Cichlid Pellets, due to the way it has been formulated and manufactured, and take out the appropriate amount of nutrients for its individual dietary requirements.

I may be a bit behing the times here but i would beleive the tropheous would digest all of what is eaten, i cant see how they could put something in the food so they dont digest the high proteins and fatty foods that other fish require ???

[CThompson]

Mark,

I don’t understand how it is done either, but I heard about what you quoted from my message, listened/remembered, filling away for future questioning. I have now contacted the individual who is responsible for NLS pellets, and he has said they are good for Tropheus, and more or less confirmed what I heard originally about this food. I followed the link he mentioned, and found others who say they use it with Tropheus (could be fake letter though), one said they have used it for three years.

Nigel,

I did as you said you did, and I contacted the person who created NLS pellets. In days gone past, I dare say your belief/caution in pellets was and still is founded, but I believe this pellet type food may be different. After all, it wasn’t that long ago the keeping of for example a reef tank was a dream, now it can be done in a two-foot tank! One thing I’m sure most would agree with me on, this is an information hobby, and as such, one needs to keep up with information and change pre-existing beliefs if new technology, innovations comes along. And to keep an open mind as to the hard and fast knowledge we who have kept fish for 30 years have gained. I’m not saying that feeding NLS pellets to Tropheus is 100% okay, as I haven’t exactly been inundated with replies to my original post saying that it is. But what I have learned since I have been researching this topic is – Don’t rule out using it for Tropheus, soak the pellets first until they swell, and it may be a good substitute as a permanent staple for Tropheus.

I have no doubt of the sincerity, or the good intentions of your post Nigel. I was only reporting back further information on this topic for your, and other interested people’s perusal.

Jim,

Thanks for your two cents worth.

Craig

[Nigel]

Like i said Craig at the end of the day it is up to you what you feed your fish. One thing i do know that no one i have ever brought tropheus from overseas has ever or would feed these types of foods to them and if i found out thay did i would not buy from them. I know the German breeders do use OSI and Sera Flora nothing else. The way i see it sometimes to much information is not a good thing. The information i was given about it was a few years ago but my opinion has not changed.

Nigel

[Guest Gutty]

I probably wouldn't feed a whole colony on NLS but did feed my display tank including this guy on NLS small granuals for a year or more with no problems at all. Though this fish now resides in a shop and is fed White Crane only and is still nice and healthy so..............not sure that it means much at all....

Matt

[Magica DiSpell]

Craig, I take it from your original post that you are concerned about the phosphate levels in your tank. I find it hard to believe that the food would be the source of the phosphate, if it only contains 1.1% (just consider how many grams you feed the fish per day) and if you do those waterchanges you mention (that should really remove the phosphate from the tank).

I know this will sound like a really silly question, but have you measured the phosphate in the water you use for waterchanges? That might be a source as well, or even the major contributor. What else do you put into the tank (my guess is that you add riftlake salts to the tank). Might they be the source of phosphate?

In regards to the food discussion. I know someone (and I don't necessarily recommend it and certainly never did it myself), who feeds his tropheus and all his other fish with the NSW CS pellets. He has done so for years and never had any problems. According to his experience, bloat may be caused not necessarily by the food, but rather by an extreme change in diet. If you give your fish enough time to adjust to the new food, apparantly Tropheus are quite able to withstand a high protein diet. But as I said, I have never fed anything but OSI spirulina flakes to my Tropheus (apart from the krill they love so much).

Don't forget that Tropheus, just like all other cichlids, are opportunistic feeders and will eat fish as well as crustaceans and insect larvae in their dayly diet. If you were to feed them on spirulina (not OSI or Sera Flora, both of which also contain non-plant protein) and vegies alone you probably don't give them a very natural diet.

As to Pablo's explanation that the fish take out of the food what they need and leave what they don't (don't I wish this worked with me and Chocolate!!!!), that sounds like marketing speaking rather than science. Unless of course certain enzymes are needed to unlock certain nutrients. However, that seems unlikely, because I would think that all cichlids would produce the same enzymes. A vet on this forum might be able to shed some light here. I am really just guessing (educated guess it might be, though).

[CThompson]

Sabine,

This is all still related to the blue-green algae in my tank.

The phosphate reading in my water change barrel, with Tang salts added, is zero. It is not coming into my tank via this rout. The rock and substrate in my tank with Tropheus is basalt. I’m not aware of its ability to leach phosphate, and don't believe it does. The only place I can see it coming from is with the food, that’s the only thing that goes into the tank (apart from the occasional feed of wrigglers, which also can’t be a source of phosphate), that I know has phosphate in it.

The water changes do remove the phosphate in the tank, down to 1ppm with a 2/3 water change, and down to .5ppm when I use Aquasonic’s phosphate remover. Come the following Saturday (the day I water change) it is back up to 3ppm (as high as my test kit goes).

My thinking is to change the food that I am using, as regardless as to wether or not the amount mentioned on the container, and the levels I am receiving in my tank relate to one another, it is the ONLY place I can think it is coming from. Once it is not used, then I will see if I am still having issues with phosphate.

This is the reason I have questioned using Spectrum pellets with Tropheus, as I want to stop/limit the amount of Sera Flora the fish are fed. I have been adding a small proportion of the NLS pellets with the Sera Flora for the last three weeks, as I’m aware a sudden change in their food is not good. I will increase the amount of NLS I add to the flake food as I go over the next few weeks.

It sounded like “marketing speaking” to me also, that is why I hadn’t chased up the original explanation as told to me several years ago. It is due to my phosphate levels that I am now seeking anther source of food to Sera Flora, and my thought were cast back to what I was told about NLS pellets, hence my posting for feedback on other Tropheus keepers who may be using NLS pellets.

Always a pleasure Sabine,

Craig

[Magica DiSpell]

Hmmm, Craig, I see your point and there is certainly no harm in trying a new food. But you know, the basalt might be responsible after all. Maybe you should set up a control tank (and who doesn't look for an excuse to set up yet another tank). And do everything as with the original tank, but don't put the rocks in. A quick read on the internet revealed that basalt often contains zeolite and other minerals. Who knows what all of those do?

I know it is a very long shot, but you never know.

[anchar]

Hi Craig,

In response to the suggestion that the basalt may be the source of phosphate, I disagree. Although many basalts do contain zeolites, their chemical composition does not include any phosphorous minerals. They are all hydrated aluminosilicates: most commonly of sodium, potassium and calcium. Even if it contained any porphyroblasts (pockets or inclusions of another mineral) it is unlikely that they will include phosphate. The main minerals which contain phosphate are generally unassociated with basalt formation. It is also highly unlikey that the basalt has "soaked up" phosphates over a period of time from another source, and then "leached" them back into the tank (collected from a paddock full of super-phosphate????). However if you remove it and the levels of phosphate reduce, then this maybe the cause.

I have come up against this "unknown" source of phosphates in an LFS situation (Q & A with customers) and after eliminating substrate, salts, medications, water, wood, fertilizers etc. as the source, I have been stumped. I can't see how the food would contribute that much to the phosphate levels (esp. since you have experienced blue-green algal blooms), however if you are sure that none of the above could possibly be the source, then try a new food.

Let me know when you do discover the culprit as I am interested in seeing how this turns out.

merjo

[Guest Gutty]

Firstly i'd like to say that i am by no means a rock expert but i am bored......

A quick google search tells me that basalt is a volcanic rock that can absorb and leach minerals from it's surroundings.(assuming i understood it correctly)

Aswell as already containing minerals that include titanium (TiO2), aluminum (A2O3), iron (FeO or Fe2O3), manganese (MnO), magnesium (MgO), calcium (CaO), sodium (Na2O), potassium (K2O, and phosphorous (P2O5).

Now that all means bugger all to me, but having used Sera flora in the past without problem i'd personally be removing the rock and see what happens. It seems no one else is having similar problems, worth a try IMO.

Good luck.

[CThompson]

Gutty,

I have always considered rocks of “volcanic” origin to be safe in fish tanks. When Yew suggested in a previous post about blue-green algae, that the rocks may be the source of phosphates in my tank, I didn’t truly consider it (I didn’t forget it though Yew), as I thought they were inert in water.

However, due to your post, I asked one of the experts where I work (I work with scientists, though am not one myself), and I have been informed that basalt is indeed inert in itself, in this respect it is like glass. However, basalt can absorb other substances, and release them!

So now I wonder if my rocks are a suspect. This is like an Agatha Christy novel.

My tank is 400L, 1/3 full of rocks, and a pretty peaceful group of Tropheus live out their life there with the rocks forming the structure of their social interactions and territories. Removing the rock will be difficult due the plain and simple fact there is a lot of it, and more importantly, I will interfere with a social structure that is pretty peaceful. The later of which I am disinclined to do.

If these rocks are the source of my phosphate, the only outward sign of an issue is with the existence of blue-green algae, the fish themselves seem happy and healthy.

Am I the only one having trouble with phosphate levels in their tanks? Out of the people who use Sera Flora, I wonder how many others have a phosphate test kit to check the levels of phosphate? Perhaps I will try and contact Sera themselves with a question on this.

Thanks for doing a bit of research on my behalf Gutty.

Craig

[Guest Gutty]

No probs Craig.

Could you pull a single rock out and drop it in a small tank and note any effects ? If your phosphate levels are rising on a weekly basis it should be a very simple/quick test.

Again, good luck with it.

Matt

[CThompson]

Thanks Sabine, merjo, and Gutty. I greatly appreciate input from people who sound genuine and intelligent. If the food isn’t the source of my phosphates, and as Sabine says, the percentage of 1.1% in the food is too low to affect 300 litres, then were on earth is it coming from?

I contacted Sera, the following is the reply that they were good enough to send to me;

“just like every food, sera flora contains a certain phosphate amount.

If, due to the food amount you (have to) use, phosphate levels rise, I

can only recommend to intensify water changes. Tropheus don't utilize

food nutrients too well and produce a lot of waste, hence water

pollution is higher as with most other fish of comparable size. The (in

most cases - I keep Tanganyikans myself, but not Tropheus) lack of

fast-growing plants adds to this problem.

Best regards

sera GmbH

Dr. Bodo Schnell”

Suggesting to so more water changes is not really an option, I feel that 2/3 once a week to be plenty, so his reply didn’t shed much light on the problem.

I will try taking two samples of water in a plastic container, put a rock in one, and not in the other and check the result.

Craig

[Guest Gutty]

Thanks Sabine, merjo, and Gutty. I greatly appreciate input from people who sound genuine and intelligent.

Me intelligent ?? hahahahaha........not likely. But i do like to help when i can........

More than 2/3 water change per week is getting rediculess, Any more than that and the Sydney Water will be after your buM....

Very interested to see how your test works out Craig. keep us updated when you can please.

Lata

Matt

[Guest Gutty]

Did you ever get this sorted out Craig ?

[CThompson]

Gutty,

I have been slowly changing my fish over to Spectrum pellets. They are pretty much feed 100% Spectrum now, but as yet I haven’t gotten back to the old phosphate test kit. I still have the blue-green algae, so one would assume that I still have high phosphate levels. I have intended to test the water again for the last couple of weeks, but while the mind is willing the spirit has been weak…

Once I confirm I still have high phosphate, I will pull out a couple of rocks and place them in water from the fish tank in a separate container, to see the results. I’ll put rock in one container, and nothinig in the other, and compare the results after a week.

I’m not in a huge hurry, as the blue-green algae is not hurting anything other than my sensibilities. I expect at the end of the day I will “nuke-em” with some antibiotics, but at the moment it is interesting to see the results of string pulling, one by one.

Thanks for asking Gutty.

Craig