Tropheus Bloat

[TropheusQueen]

I also gave some Seachem Garlic Guard to help improve their appetite

Interesting...did it work??

I have been soaking their food in metronidazole, as well as dosing the tank, and will continue to do so for another few days. I am only putting miniscule amounts in the tank however and they are not really interested.

I not only have the 400mg tabs but also the liquid infusion, as the tablets are not soluble.

I understand that it is part of tropheus keeping, but it is a part that I hope takes another five years to surface again - if ever

Thanks Dave for keeping track of this post and Ducksta, there I am smiling again .

Aline

[anchar]

Aline,

Found this for you..

After nearly a decade in the hobby, I have seen my fair share of fish get lost to bloat. There are a pile of remedies but I found that at best these gave the fish a 50/50 shot. With some trial and error I came up with the following method that has worked 100% of the time with no apparent negative side affects on breeding, health, etc.

== IMPORTANT ==

(1) DO NOT FEED ANYTHING during this process.

(2) Start this procedure as soon as the fish shows symptoms (spitting familiar food, hiding during feeding, etc.)

Medication required: Clout (Aquarium Products)

Day 1: Move fish to quarantine tank and treat with Clout at full strength (1 tablet / 10 gallons--remove carbon from filter)

Day 2: No water change. Treat again with Clout at half strength.

Day 3: Do nothing

Day 4: Do an 80% water change and treat with Clout at full strength

Day 5: Do nothing

**Day 6--?: Return fish to main tank only after symptoms have subsided and the fish has been healthy: (eating, swimming, breathing normally) for at least a week.

Resist the urge to try feeding the fish until after the treatment is over and do not cut the treatment short regardless of whether the fish looks better or not. If at any time during the treatment your fish seems to be experiencing stress as a result of the medication then do an immediate 75% water change.

Bloat should also not be occurring regularly with your existing fish. If it is you should consult some of the excellent articles on the internet regarding diet, water quality etc. For myself, bloat has primarily been a problem with new arrivals up to 6 weeks after their arrival.

Hope this helps save some fish.

Shane

It comes from a reputable hobbyist in the US. HTH.

Andrea

[Nigel]

Aline I have tried a vitamin supplement when treating tropheus. The one I used was Seachem reef plus. I have been of the opinion that what is needed when treating them is something to build up there immune system. I know salmon farmers in Tasmania where looking at the some thing. As salmon carry a similar parasite and also die from a bacterial infection.

If some one knows a way to build up there immune system when treating for bloat I think this will help. I have tried to find one over the years but no luck. So maybe there is something new that I don't know about. Jess maybe able to help. Just a thought.

[TropheusQueen]

Thanks Merjo and Nigel

This is what the forum is all about.

All of these suggestions are worth trying, unfortunately, or fortunately as the case may be , no one is willing to risk their healthy fish as a control group for some of these theories. So we trial and error them and fingers crossed we hit on the right formula.

Keep those suggestions and thoughts coming

Things not very bright in Tropheus ICU

Cheers

Aline

[Sarah]

hi Aline

sorry to hear of all your nkonde losses, i wish your remaining Nkonde make a speedy recovery and that u have no more losses

take care

[Nigel]

Aline I am at a lose to understand why the antibiotic and Metronidazole are not having some effect on the Tropheus. I can only think that we did not get them soon enough or it is a bacteria that is resistant to the medications. I would be inclined to get one that is heavily bloated put under a microscope. This has to be done with a live fish sorry about that but its the only way. If you decide to get one done and Jess cant do it I know of another Vet that does. I will pass on there details if you want them.

[trofius]

Nigel, I did this when my kiriza went a year or so ago, you may remember. and agree a vet would be great to get involved.

I used fish that were sooo close to dead,... lying on their side gasping, from what I saw in three fish was that the begining of their throat, stomach, intestines, and liver were infected with a type of fungus that had started just behind the gills, the intestines were like mush and barely reognisable also, which made disections difficult

I used a disecting microscope however and it was not powerfull enough to see to bacteria levels, it was pretty obvious that the damage was extensive and the fish was not going to come back from it.

Talking to a guy in the US aquatic microbiologist, he thought as i do that the disease has stages, it may start as an upset in the intestinal flora, caused by stress, that can impact on the integrity of the stomach, and intestineal linings (kinda like a stress ulcer in people) this could be caused by protozaons, or bacteria which then developes into a secondary fungal infection.

This is why sometimes the braoder acting medications work better. such as clout, and metro.

(lets all hope that there are no viruses concerned with this disease)

i also fed my fish a teeny bit while treating, i used this as an indictor of if the fish was getting better, if the food was gone great, if their was dark poop in the bottom of the tank/bucket even better.

I found that a few were hard asses and never got sick, these three i have left (1m,2f) are now breeding and i have 7 lil dubosi fry! from 4 mouthfulls,

this tretment will severly stunt the fish. the siblings of my fish,,(he still has 32 duboisi, are easily 10+cm, to my 6-7cm,

Good luck we are all thinking of you!

[TropheusQueen]

Nigel- i was also thinking along the same lines but had frozen a couple of the deceased ones with visible bloated bellies, for Jess to look at at a later date. It makes sense however that whatever is present in the live fish may no longer be there after death

I am almost sure that by the time I came and saw you I had missed all of the early signs and that it had progressed to a place too far from recovery.

The remaining fish are showing no external physical symptoms - no bloat, no white faeces etc but are not eating as normal.

Thanks for the offer and will let you know if Jess is unable to help.

Learning every moment of the day.....

Cheers

Aline

[Nigel]

If the fish are showing no physical symptoms thats good. Maybe the medication has had some effect. It does take a while for them to recover so just keep your chin up mate all is not lost.

[griffin]

If the fish are showing no physical symptoms thats good. Maybe the medication has had some effect. It does take a while for them to recover so just keep your chin up mate all is not lost. 

←

I agree - it is a good sign that the remaining fish have not progressed to full bloat, I feel sure that in their current state they would have gone on to die had they not been treated. So yes, I would say the medication is working.

However, the fish will have suffered damage to their intestines from the protozoan imabalance/attack - this can take quite some time to rectify (I believe (from prior experience) this happens with wasting disease survivors - they stay skinny for a long time even if they start eating again. The good news is that for those fish, if they survive the wasting disease, they will eventually regain their gut function and become healthy again - but it takes a long time).

So hang in there - if they are even eating a tiny bit it's a lot better than if their appetite has gone completely.

Also - take on board what trofius has said, it makes sense - your fish have copped a nasty debilitating disease and are far more at risk of secondary infections. By medicating their water and keeping the tank clean etc. you are reducing the risk of this but the medications you are using may not do anything for a secondary fungal infection - if you see any signs that your fish may have something like this then it may be necessary to treat them with an anti-fungal.

I know you are watching them like a hawk though, so I'm sure that if anything else comes along you'll be on to it quick-smart.

Good luck, don't despair, they should improve, it may just take a fair bit of TLC (of which I am sure you have plenty).

Cheers,

Jess

[TropheusQueen]

Thank you dear Jess.

I want to eradicate this disease from the face of the fish world but right now i would settle for just this tank

Hope to see you all soon and sepak in person.

Cheers

Aline

[Jim]

Hi Aline,

I hope the remaining come around soon for u

Takes a week or so sometimes for them to come good after heavy medication.

Do u have a uv sterilizer to put on that tank?does help

Fingers crossed for u

regards

[TropheusQueen]

Hey Jim,

Great to hear from you .

We did have a UV steriliser, brand new in box, unfortunately on opening found that it was faulty.

We have backups of everything in this household , unfortunately the UV was not one of them. It has gone on the shopping list to be bought.

The past couple of weeks has been horrific in no uncertain terms - we are also in the midst of a battle over our new tanks - that is a whole other story - and I need to calm down and think of an appropriate means of letting everyone know the ridiculous chain of events that leaves us short a number of large tanks (broken in transit), with all the rest delivered, made incorrectly. Couple that with the worst customer service I have experienced in a while, you can imagine my state of mind in coping with bloat

Time for that get together mentioned in another post I think

Cheers

Aline

[MoliroMan]

sorry to hear that the bloat is indeed spreading.

i think Nigel's idea of boosting the immune system with vitamins is a great idea. I have tried that in the past even when the fish were not unwell. However, i think whatever u try to do, if the trophs aren't eating, they won't improve. That is why i resorted to using the Garlic guard. I must say the fish do show more interest in food but the downside is it gives your fish garlic breath!

I think i heard from Nigel and others in the past that maybe u have treated the protozoan infection successfully but if the damage is too severe, then secondary bacterial infection may occur. As such i also add a antibiotic to my treatment regime - i have used kanamycin (kanaplex) in the past but that is difficult to come by (maybe Nigel has some?). I have also used Furan 2 (available from Auburn) but it can dye your silicon orange! Other antibiotics u could use are tetracycline. doxycycline and erythromycin. I have tried Clout as well - but what i understand is it is just a combination of metronidazole and some antibiotic. Someone in the forum was selling these tablets.

With my bad experience with full blown bloat with my Golden Kazumba i forgot to mention i had an existing colony of ikola and duboisi with them. Only one of them died whereas all but 4 of the GKs died. So the treatment i gave obviously prevented my existing fish from contracting bloat. I always have a UV filter in my 3 larger tanks to prevent water-borne spread of infection but don't know how effective that is. On top of the metro and Furan-2 i treated them with Antiparasite remedy by Aquarium science and Worm-Rid which contains praziquantel to treat any fluke or tapeworm. It was a lot of work and suffering but eventhough i didn't save them all i didn't lose them all. Just don't give up!

HTH

Dave

Ps. In the past i did use the flagyl tablets but found they were poorly soluble in water. I did consider using the solution but it is kept at an acid pH so i was worried it would alter the tank pH. I think the best formulation i have come by is dimetronidazole - normally used for treatment of birds who develop colic/diarrhoea.

It is water soluble and i think more effective.

[parrdog]

G'day Aline,

This is one of those moments where its hard to know what to say. I just feel so sorry for you and your little guys that are going through hell . Hopefully the remainder of your colony have turned the corner and as Jim said, just need some time to get back on track. Their little tummies have gone through the ringer, I wouldn't feel like diving back into the chow yet either.

I'm sorry I haven't been a source of advice. For what it's worth, I run a uv steraliser with my Moops. I can't tell you the benefits though, it's just a piece of mind piece of equipment. I got it from Ben at AOA for a pretty tidy price.

I sincerely hope the little guys are turning the corner and thankyou for sharing your experiences, it reminds us Tropheus keepers to keep a watch on our little friends.

Hope the next few days bring some good news ,

Jamie.

[Mazimbwe]

Still hoping for things to improve Aline.

Just wanted to let you know that I had an Ikola autopsied by the Ag-Dept a while back. I took the fish to be examined and it was in the swollen stage of an illness that didn't present as bloat at any stage. Tghe fish was eating at all stages and swimming normally but was just "different"( I can't explain what made me watch the individual more closely but it was not right).

The problem with leaving the autopsy till this late stage is that the major organs are pretty much liquified by that stage and there is little that could be deduced in my case. There were protazoans present and other microbial stuff that was of concern but there was a problem deciphering what started the problem...chicken or the egg senario that was never really resolved.

No one else got sick and that was the only fish that had a problem & I had the autopsy done with the intention of avoiding a "Mystery Death".

Not sure if this is of any help to you but I hope it helps in some way.

[anchar]

Funny story for you Aline..might give you a smile

With all the bloat talk here I became paranoid when I lost a female front the other night for no *apparent* reason. Water all checked out fine and there didn't appear to be any injuries. In my "wisdom" I decided to catch out the other two and move them to another tank. The very large male was inside a poly pipe and as I started to lift it from the water the worst possible thing happened. I thought it would reverse from the pipe into the awaiting net, but instead, he propelled himself forward. He shot out of the tube, hit me in the forehead and fell to the floor (from the top tank of a triple rack).

I jumped to the floor, shouting at my curious heeler x who had come bounded in to check out the commotion. I threw him into a tank with some adult phenos and cursed myself repeatedly for my stupidity. I caught out the female frontie and added her to the pheno colony also. I sat watching the fallen male apprehensively and he seemed ok. The next evening when I went to feed the group, I noticed that neither frontie nor one of the phenos wanted to eat. Naturally the fact that fronties usually don't eat when moved into a new tank didn't enter my mind. The fact that the pheno wouldn't eat either further reinforced the bloat theory. So, out with the clout (afterall, I wanted to catch it ASAP).

Last night, I added the second dose of clout and sat anxiously watching them. Of course I couldn't gauge whether they were eating because I have stopped feeding them whilst medicating. Then I noticed something heartening...the female who hadn't been eaten was juggling eggs! They have never bred so I didn't even think of this the night before . I was so clouded with all the bloat talk here that I jumped the gun

Now I have to wait and see how they all are after the treatment is completed. The large male frontie appears to be unphased by his lino surfing antics of a few nights ago, however I will continue to worry until the clout has run it's course and all tankmates are eating again. So they are not out of the woods yet, but I feel more hopeful than I did two nights ago.

Andrea

[TropheusQueen]

What a great chain of events.

Thanks Merjo....yes that has made me smile....laugh even. Especially the mental picture of flying fronnies attacking their owners with head butt tactics

It appears I have instilled some paranoia....which is probably not a bad idea....if people are watching their fish a bit closer

I know what our three dogs are like when we have fish in nets, so I can imagine what they would do if one went skidding across the floor. I am certain that they would think it was a gift, as far too much time is spent on the scaled ones in our home

Nothing more to report atm.

Cheers

Aline

[TropheusQueen]

Hi all,

Two weeks have passed since this saga first began, although it seems to me like a whole lot longer.

It has now been 5 days since I have lost a fish but unfortunately there are only five Nkonde left

Those five however have been eating enthusiastically for the past two days. They are playing around as Tropheus do and wag their caudal fins when they see me approach . It is as though nothing has happened and I am hoping that these will prove that although caught very late the treatment has been somewhat successful .

Due to a frightening dash to a vet with my cockatiel, also this week (she is still in hospital) I have found a vet that not only knows his birds, but is passionate about herps and FISH....yippeeee. He wanted to know all of the details of the bloat episode and if it strikes again will be on hand to test any fish I bring to him. Thank you Jess for the lead and to Nigel for the info .

I have travelled around 500 klms in search of medication, I have not had much sleep and I have arrived to work each day in the nick of time after treating the fish each morning. I am still medicating their food but will ease off soon....I think.

I am writing an article with doses and other specs etc. for those interested. It will be done soon but the conclusion will have to wait a couple more weeks as I am not keen to celebrate yet

Cheers

Aline

[parrdog]

I am sorry for the fish you lost.

I am also very happy for you that the remainder of the colony have come through so far and are getting back to normal. Here's hoping they go from strength to strength and in the future build a happy, healthy, strong colony.

Great news Aline and well done for your hard work and persistence, here's to more good news.

Cheers ,

Jamie.

[jebe]

Hi aline sorry to read such bad news

Fingers crossed all is well for the future

Just some info

metro is an Antibiotic, antiprotozoal, amebicidal, trichomonacidal and bactericidal.

I think its great because it wont mess with the filter

doxycycline will mess with your filter, but it does work great if used in the early stages and no feeding during this time for obvious reasons

The use of a UV sterilizer in conjunction with the metro might hinder its affect, uv light can break down molecules and stop there functionality. The use of these babys is great but not in conjunction with the medds

Hope they come out breeding for you soon

Cheers justin

[Mazimbwe]

Glad to hear the losses have stopped Aline.

2 of my mates have suffered large losses in the past, 2 seperate colonies of 2 different .spp for 2 seperate owners, and in both occasions they got down to scarily low numbers that started, soon after recovery, to spawn and replenish their own stock.

I hope this is the experience you have.