steven Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 I have had a successful tropical tank for 7 years and decided to swap to cichlids four weeks ago. I got advice from LFS and had them convert the tank including crushed coral base. After 3 seemingly successful weeks with 11 juvenile malawi fish, they all died one by one over the space of one day. LFS tested water and found nothing of note. Ph 7.8. filter eheim ecocanister filter. I am also wondering what do I do next?? Do I stay with cichlids or go back to tropical fish - never had anything like this happen to me in all the years of tropical including moving house a couple of times etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepperfish Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 1st thing comes to mind is was the filter properly cycled? How big is the tank? Perhaps there was too much load on it.. Did you purchase all the fish from the same LFS ? Ph should be up around 8 for malawi. Stick with cichlids - there awesome.. What did you have in the tank which all died? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeWs Fish Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Sorry to hear about your loss... Stay with cichlids mate - they are much more fun in the long term (ive kept both). Did you cycle your tank? If you didnt, that pretty much explains it.... unfortunately you need to grow the good bacteria in your tank before you put fish in there, so that the bad bacteria from the excess food etc doesnt cause a nitrite spike which can be lethal for your fish... If you did cycle your tank, it seems odd, very unlucky! What type of fish were they and what were feeding them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 according to LFS the filter was cycled. Tank is 3 ft all purchased but in two loads from same LFS - 10 days apart. LFS tested water and told me tank was fully cycled. Tank included 2 electric blue, two electric yellow, blue zebra, kadango, rhodesii, and maingano and anectons. feed them sera granugreen - according to instructions! Thanks for the advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 according to LFS the filter was cycled. I doubt you can completely cycle a filter in a week. But to have all fish die in one day is weird. Sounds more like a toxin than a non-cycled tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeWs Fish Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Doesnt sound like it was cycled IMHO. If you have more than one tank. run a second filter in the 1st tank as long as possible. Put as much water from the 1st tank into your new tank. and then put the extra filter in. This will help cycle your tank. Also take some dirt from the 1st tank (the filter sponge is full of this) and squuueze it tinto the new tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 Only one tank!! Have to support three kids so wife won't let me buy bigger tank! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeWs Fish Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ok.... thats kewl. Also, buy yourself a test kit for nitite, nitrate, Ph and ammonium, so you can tell when your tank is cycled properly. All the reading should be 0 or very close to it if the tank is cycled. If it is cycled, do a 40-50 % water change and wait 1 week. then put 4 cichlids in it. Feed very sparingly. If it isnt cycled, I suggest putting some goldfish in there for around 3 weeks. maybe 10 of them.... then start with 4 cichlids... each week add another 4. You can give the goldfish back to the store when you're finished with them. I know this seems tedious, but its the best way to cycle/check your tank IMO at this stage. I think what might have happened is that the second 'chunk' of cichlids you bought overloaded the bio load for the good bacteria. and caused a spike of some sort which was caused the fish to die. This is what happened to me when i put fish in my first taank afetr it was cycled too. Too many fish for the good bacteria to cope. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 thanks all i will take your advice. it has been depressing for me (homicidal for my poor fish) but i do feel that cichliding is the way to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sab Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 FWIW, I have had much success with a product called "Bio Start" (chemical induction of freshwater biological filters) and daily sponge filter squeezings from my two other tropical tanks when i set up my 4 foot Cichlid (Mbuna) tank. I read the ammonia, nitrite and then nitrate readings everyday during the cycle and the whole tank was cycled in 10 days. I continued reading and monitoring the tank (after adding the fish) every second day for a month too and ammonia/nitrite remained at 0ppm reading (and still does!) During cycle there was no fish in the tank and it cycled thru ammonia readings (and then dropping to 0ppm), then the nitrite (and then dropping to 0ppm) and then got steady nitrate readings. Ive never had a problem with ammonia or nitrite appearing again in the 18 months the tank has been set up – nitrate hovers around 20 - 30ppm (before a water change) I believe the base of the bio start is a uric acid which I added at the rate of 1ml for each 20 litres for 7 days (along with decent filter squeezings from other cycled tanks). BTW, I have no affiliation with bio start (or Aquasonic who make it)! maybe something to look into? anyone else use this stuff? cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Hey Sab, Did you manually add ammonia or is it contained in biostart? Sorry, it wasn't too clear. I've had a similar timeframe (10-14 days) using nutrafin cycle, though with some of the intended fish in the tank, just fed sparingly at first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie888 Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Hi Steven, Sorry for your loss. You may want to read the article on cycling the tank, the URL address is below www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cycling.php There are so much information on the internet in relation to cihlids. Once, your tank is ready to take another batch of fish, please do research (or ask anyone in this forum) for any fish before you buy. The previous mix of fish you had may not be ideal IMO, your E-blues and Kandango will be harrased by the zebra and maingano. The rhoadesii will outgrow your tank. HTH, Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Those fish would have grown too big for your 3ft. This is the best place to seek advice, LFS's generally don't know much about cichlids at all (they may think they do). However cichlids are alot more tolerant than most of your community type tropicals so you shouldn't have a problem in the future. When starting out your cichlid hobby it is important to readup on the following: The Hybrid issue, What sort of cichlids you want to keep (eg. look at how big the fish grow and the water parameters) and what all begginers to aquariums should understand is the Nitrogen cycle. I wrote an article on the nitrogen cycle for this very purpose, it is easy to understand for begginers http://www.cichlids-aust.com/articles.html. The article is down the bottom. There is also information on the hybrid issue at the following link as well as alot of other info: http://www.sydneycichlid.com/articles.html. When getting started patience is needed otherwise you may lose more fish, but once your over the beggining period of keeping cichlids it becomes very rewarding because they are an awesome family of fish to keep, full of personallity and attitude. Anthony PS: Just to back up charlie, reasurch on your fish is very important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sab Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Did you manually add ammonia or is it contained in biostart? Sorry, it wasn't too clear. Hi Ash... The "Aquasonic BioStart" was all I used - no need for the addition of any extra ammonia as the BioStart contains the uric acid base (as I understand it). As I said I also used daily squeezings of sponge filters from my other two tanks.... and I added CYCLE at the start too. I used some of the water from my other two tanks too. I think the key is to use established filter squeezings (and water) to kick start the new cycle in the new tank.... and to monitor it vigilantly! sorry about the confusion! steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katanaone Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 lepperfish IMO a pH of 7.8 is ok steven, have you talked to the lfs if so what was their oppinion and their stance on the problem? despite popular oppinion some lfs's do have valuable information...on the other hand though some don't have a clue. making a quick buck of some poor newbie sap who has wandered through the front door with a bag of gold seems to be becomming more and more a thing of the past don't get me wrong it definately still exists but i do find that the more reputable stores have a genuine interest in keeping a long time customer happy. simply talk to them and ask what they can do to help you out of the jam you're in. and lastly cichlids rock you've already crossed over, now theres no turning back! cheers...ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven Posted January 6, 2005 Author Share Posted January 6, 2005 Hi all thanks for your advice & help. I went to a different LFS who tested again & found, not to anyones surprise {except me 48hrs ago} that the amonia & nitrates were high. The first LFS had not tested anything except nitrates. I now have an amonia absobing 'stuff' in my tank & a new lfs & 1 hardy aldae eater (very boring). As to amount of fish i took advice from multiple sorses. That was in a way why i had joined the ACE in thew first place (5 days before this occured). I hope also to convince my wife to let me have anew 4-5 ft tank before march any ideas of what fish to buy will be gratly appreciated. again thank you all for your help especially as no one made me feel as stupid as i feel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeWs Fish Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Steven, at least now you can make sense of what has happened and get some sort of closure. As for buying new fish... I really recommend you apply to get the 'classifeds' via this thread. It will open a whole new world of the 'wholesale' market for cichlids. Also, I recommend the 'Breeders Register'. If you dont know what a fish looks like etc, just search for the scientific name on google and you'll attain pictures and info about them. Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roo Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Here are some helpful web links, I am fairly new to this game as well. These sites helped me alot. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/index.php ( click on the library link there is some really good info on a range of stuff) http://www.tropheus.info/riftlakes/ ( you can click on the scientific names to see what the fish is all about) http://www.sydneycichlid.com As I am in the really steep part of the learning phase, I read something off these sites everyday and if I find it uesful then I print it off and keep it in a folder, so I can easily access it. After a while you end up with a sizable reference folder cointaining info on most things that could go wrong. And of course everyone on this forum loves to help out, I have recieved nothing but friendly advice since I started in this hobby. Cheers Andrew PS Use the classifieds I overpaid by heaps for some of my fish at the LFS. Most guys here have the fishes interest at heart and not their back pocket. And with the classifieds at least you know where your fish came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepperfish Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 PS Use the classifieds I overpaid by heaps for some of my fish at the LFS. Most guys here have the fishes interest at heart and not their back pocket. And with the classifieds at least you know where your fish came from. Just because you paid more at your lfs then from someone on the classefieds doesnt nessacarily mean you paid too much for the fish.. This has been discussed at great length recently about supporting the lfs's.. Where would we be without them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roo Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 trust me in the case I was referring to I did over pay for my fish, I am not unhappy as I wanted them it was a conscious decision that I made. I still go to the same LFS. I have also bought fish that weren't over priced at my local LFS. Overall I am very happy with the three LFS I go to. I work in corporate finance and am well versed in mark-up, margin, profit, Economies of scale and scope. I am more than happy to pay money to LFS, as they provide a valuable service, that as a complete beginner I really do have a need for. The three LFS on the Nothern Beaches have all been really helpful, I have recieved free fish from two of them as they realised I was just starting out. I have also had unbelievable service from St George Aquarium where I had my tank made. I ended up having a 45 min conversation about my new hobby wth one of the staff. I even drive to Rockdale just to check out the store, with no intention of buying anything. So please don't take my last post as being anti-LFS, it was just a quick post using loose language while I was starting my morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Can I offer a new line of thinking? Because I am going to anyway I think you probably had a good and well cycled filter with your tropical tank. The conversion to a cichlid tank meant a sharp (and probably fast) increase in pH. I think that has caused a massive (probably total) die off in your filter bacteria. This not only leaves you with an uncycled filter but also with a massive bioload caused by the breakdown of the dead bacteria. This is a trap alot of people fall into when they change the requirements of a tank on the fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepperfish Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 I did the same thing though ducksta.. I cycled my 4x2x2 with a pair of salmon cats for about 1 month in neutral water.. Then I took them out and the filter was left dry for about 2 or 3 days till I setup my tank to suit cichlids so any beneficial bacteria would have died anyhow.. My tank has not experienced 1 death - well except my electric yellows which was due to being bullied.. Roo: PM me those shops you visit on the northern beaches Ill give you the heads up on them.. Cheers.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven Posted January 7, 2005 Author Share Posted January 7, 2005 again thanks all. actually roo i did the trip to rockdale yesterday (unfortunatly this cost me a freezer for the wife at good guys). i spent a long time talking to them & feel in some ways obligated to buy at least some fish from them. while i dont want to overpay, i have been following the "where to buy argument" and feel particular for newbies like me it is impotant to see cichlids in LFS. if not i never would have seen them. thus i will buy fish from both again you have all been fantastic in your advice. sorry for my poor spelling/typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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