CThompson Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 I am in the process of putting together a six foot tank. I purchased two four foot Universal rocks, so for it to fit I have had to cut a two foot piece off the end of one of them. Once I put them in the tank (haven’t bought the tank yet) I intend to put the full length four foot one at the left of the tank, and the two foot cut one at the right end of the tank, doing it this way, due to how I cut it, it will enable me to cause the cut edge of this two foot section to be butt up against the right end of the tank, and close any access off to fish, with no visibility for humans. The two foot piece still left over I intend to put at the right end of the tank (the tank goes in a corner). The right hand side of this piece will face the front wall of the tank, but because of the way Universal Rocks have finished this end, the end is closed off, and there will be no access to fish, nor sight down behind. However, the other end of this piece, because it is cut, will be open. As this cut edge faces towards the back right corner (coming in contact with the other cut two foot piece), a viewer will not be able to see down inside, but the fish will gain access. My question is, provided this cut edge cannot be viewed down behind and that it looks reasonably natural, is their any problem with fish using it as a hidey hole? Some debris may become trapped back there, but I can deal with that, and as I intend to move my K1 colony into this tank, they I’m sure will love this refuge, but will spend most of their time out and about in full view as Tropheus do. Appreciate any comments to help me form an opinion. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitrusty Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 hi mate i found with this stuff that over time all the debris will pollute the water as you cant clean it i lost all my fish in one go from it best bet is too silicone up the gap so nothing can get in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tykita Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 gday craig i agree with rusty but also i had one that wasn't sealed and with an early spit from my colony(i'm assuming you are breeding your K1 colony)a few of them died in behind it.the way they are made there is always a chance of them getting stuck behind it and then you have to pull it apart to get the fish out.i think its best off sealed if you can make it look natural enough.thats just my opinion.i hope its of use regards chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gargamel Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 better off buying a 6 foot one and not worrying about the bit at the end, too much mucking about, just get a big rock or something for the end. and use heaps of silicone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 can you notch the edges & just fold it at that end? Definately silicone the sucker in - mine's just sitting free & I regret it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted September 19, 2005 Author Share Posted September 19, 2005 It is my understanding that if you seal a universal rock background to the back of a tank, and you do a really good job, it won’t be good enough for water to not get in. If it were there would be an air filled cavity, and not one filled with water from the tank. I beleive a problem can result here in that if you do a water change, this water trapped behind the background which may have become crook/off/bad (what ever term you want to use), but was okay while trapped behind the background because it was sealed away, as you do the water change, the water level behind the background will equal the water level in the tank. That means the fouled water behind the background will come out into the main water of the tank. I could see this as a problem, and wonder if this is not some sort of deviation on what you experienced bitrusty. Following from that, if part of a background was completely open (i.e. not a small entry that a fish may not be able to find again to get out), but not open to our view, then the water behind the background and in the tank will be of the same quality. If it is completely open, I don’t understand how a fish (particularly a Tropheus) could get stuck there any more than it would get trapped in one of the rock piles they currently inhabit (I might add I have lost mbuna in the past getting stuck in rocks). What I have been thinking of doing, with the two backgrounds that will be attached to the back of the tank, I will incorporate a way for this water to be permanently mixed. I have been thinking about having two holes drilled in the tank situated behind the backgrounds, and bulk heading them topped with strainers. I would organise for water to be pumped to or from these areas to the tank to maintain the water here. Gargamel, I already have these backgrounds, so it is not really an option to get one that fits the entire back of the six foot tank. In addition, the backgrounds I have are second hand and made out of a non-standard size at 2.5 foot high (my tank when made will be made to fit these). You can't buy 2.5' ones off the shelf as it were, so I value these backgrounds for this. Greatly appreciate your thoughts on this, please feel free to give me further feedback if you don't agree with my comments. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted September 19, 2005 Author Share Posted September 19, 2005 can you notch the edges & just fold it at that end? Definately silicone the sucker in - mine's just sitting free & I regret it now. ← Ash, I have every intention to silicone the three in place, but was wonding about the open end of the one that is cut. Possible, but really difficult to fill the gap with sillicon, and was wondering if it is even needed. I expect a dominate fish would love to call it home. Don't think I could notch the edges and fold them in. This stuff is really ridged, and is tough just to cut with saw. Folding wouldn't work and I'd think not look to good if I could . Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 my juvie synspils swim in & out of behind the background freely - as does my pictus cat. If you keep sufficent gap consistantly there, I'm sure any fish that can fit will use it. I used to get worried when the fish got behind there - now they come & go as they please. What I meant by silicone it is just glue it to the back so it stays in place - when I do water changes mine sags at the end not supported by the standpipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 I've never had one of these backgrounds, but have seen them in shops. Shops tend to silicone them in, so that no water or fish can get behind them. I think if I was to use one of these backgrounds I'd hate the idea of fish going behind it. Afterall, it's more of a mid-ground than a back-ground if you are using it to house fish behind I may be pedantic, and perhaps this is why I have never used one myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r.d.m Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 my smaller fish and the synos get behind mine all the time with no probs, i would tend to leave a large gap for water transfer,if it was completely sealed wouldnt it collapse under water pressure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulochromis Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 What filtration (or really what overflow) scheme are you plaaning? A column overflow/weir in the "junction corner" would mean that both your small sections butt up against glass, rather than each other. +-----------------------+---+ |<==============><======|...| |.......................+---+ |.........................ll| |.........................ll| |.........................ll| |..........................v| +---------------------------+ Forgive the crappy drawing, I'm sure you can picture the idea. You should be able to silicone the "open" ends to the glass. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted September 20, 2005 Author Share Posted September 20, 2005 Thanks for your comments. Baz, did you look behind these shop tanks to see there was only air behind their background? I believe I would find it nearly impossible to stop water from going behind these backgrounds. Even more so for a shop to do it as their time would be more precious ($) than mine. I would also silicon it up to prevent water going behind, but as I sure I will not be successful; it’ll be more a job to stop fish, and to hold the background in place. The backgrounds are so irregular sealing it in would be really difficult, and to have the job look nice at the end would be pretty important too. Paul – excellent drawing mate, that would have taken me ages. You’re spot on except I will not be having an overflow section. I will be filtering the tank with a filter called Filtoclear, which is a LARGE canister filter (holds around 20l), with a sort of back flush and reverse plunger action (to agitate the filter media) function which means I will not have to open it to clean – the pump I will have on it will do about …(what was it?) 950 lph. I will have another pump (probably an Oceanrunner) just to move extra water around, this also will be plumbed, with (current thinking) two inlets into it (joined by a T near the pump) which will be situated one behind each background attached to the back of the tank, and the two outlets (also using a T piece with taps) will be in the body of the tank (probably one in the front left corner, and one in the back right corner in front of the backgrounds). If the background at the right end of the tank is not sealed in, I don’t think I would need to provide for water flow. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 Craig the ones I have seen have had some kind of black contact or paint on the side of the tank to prevent people seeing in behind the rock wall. I'm not sure if that's purely a cosmetic thing, or if it's to stop customers from seeing the hideous mess behind the wall I've also seen them siliconed into tanks which are empty and awaiting sale, and they looked to be well sealed, but obviously without water in the tank I am merely guessing. Have you tried talking to a tankbuilder about this? I'm sure they would have been the ones siliconing the walls in, so they might be able to offer a more informed opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted September 21, 2005 Author Share Posted September 21, 2005 Craig the ones I have seen have had some kind of black contact or paint on the side of the tank to prevent people seeing in behind the rock wall. I'm not sure if that's purely a cosmetic thing, or if it's to stop customers from seeing the hideous mess behind the wall I have seen what you are talking about, and I expect it is a cosmetic thing. I've also seen them siliconed into tanks which are empty and awaiting sale, and they looked to be well sealed, but obviously without water in the tank I am merely guessing. Have you tried talking to a tankbuilder about this? I'm sure they would have been the ones siliconing the walls in, so they might be able to offer a more informed opinion. ← I have been thinking about the possibility of gluing it in place before the tank is constructed, when access may be easier. Thanks for the thought, I might ask Wayne about it, he'd probably have more experience than I, so worth a question. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citypainter Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 How some simple problems become dilemnas. Whats the chance of you filling it with sand? No fish no pollution no worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E4G13M4N Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 I have been using them for quite a few years on some display tanks. Completly sealed with silicone and water will still be behind the wall. In 4 + years of using them i havnt lost a fish due to the wall, as water changes are done the water is changed behind the wall as well, what goes in comes back out. this includes tanks that i have cut the UR shorter etc. If you are not certain run a airstone or direct some water flow behind the wall, i have never had to do that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted September 21, 2005 Author Share Posted September 21, 2005 How some simple problems become dilemnas. Whats the chance of you filling it with sand? No fish no pollution no worries. ← I certainly wouldn't say I had a delema, just wanted a few other opinions. I like to hear them, and with a super suggestion such as yours it has paid off Very simple and interesting take on the issue mate, how about taking it one step further and pumping water into this sand (bio media) filled cavity (at a slow rate for nitrate removal, or faster for ammonia and nitrite) to make it a biological cleaner? Now that appeals to me Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted September 21, 2005 Author Share Posted September 21, 2005 I have been using them for quite a few years on some display tanks. Completly sealed with silicone and water will still be behind the wall. As I thought would happen. In 4 + years of using them i havnt lost a fish due to the wall, as water changes are done the water is changed behind the wall as well, what goes in comes back out. this includes tanks that i have cut the UR shorter etc. I expect you have been doing regular water changes all that time? I woud imagine if one didn't do water changes regularly, the longer between changes, the more time the water behind the backgound has a chance to go off. When water change is done after a long period of abstinence, this more polluted water could cause and issue. Not that I intend to be slack with water changes, but if I can do it better when setting the tank up, why not. If you are not certain run a air stone or direct some water flow behind the wall, i have never had to do that though. ← I intended to just put a couple of plumbed pump outlets/inlets in there to actually mix the water with the water in the rest of the tank. Air stones would move the water around in there but not actually create any exchange. I expect a simple air stone would be all that is required though. However, if I organise this water to be plumbed in or out, I will effectively gain a greater total tank water capacity. If I use the idea of pumping water in or out of a media filled area, then I would probably get an even greater benefit. Thanks for the information. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 is that "space invader" expanding foam toxic when set? that's one way to stop anything getting behind there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frontyluv Posted September 22, 2005 Share Posted September 22, 2005 adding my 2cents~ used the universal rock background in a 4 footer.had a lot of problems as a lot of people have already mentioned. they were also a pain in the a** to put in the tank & pull out if you noticed a fish was trapped behind it. Look great but practicallity of it sucked in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted September 22, 2005 Author Share Posted September 22, 2005 adding my 2cents~ used the universal rock background in a 4 footer.had a lot of problems as a lot of people have already mentioned. they were also a pain in the a** to put in the tank & pull out if you noticed a fish was trapped behind it. Look great but practicallity of it sucked in my opinion ← Thanks for your input frontyluv, you have confirmed the need to not have a situation where a fish can't get back out again. To me that either means sealing the background to the point nothing can enter to become trapped, or have the background so open that anything that can enter can freely exit. Ash - I have no idea if that foam is aquarium safe. If it is classed as “potable” it would be okay, so it is an interesting comment. I've been thinking more on citypainter's suggestion. Just filling it with sand would not be a fix, as there will be water still within this media that would exit when a water change was done. So if the water holds the potential to go off/bad without the cavity behind the background being filled, it would still hold this potential when filled with any media such as sand. I still really like the idea however. If I caused water to flow into these backgrounds, I would not have to be concerned about the trapped water going off as it would be continually exchanged. If I have this area set up with some water flow exchanging the water between this water and the water in the rest of the tank AND filled the background with say limestone sand (or coral for that matter), it would be a source to not only buffer the water, it would in addition be a biological media's playgroud! It would be like an under gravel filter only horizontal (Lee will like this). I was intending to cause water to be sucked out of the backgrounds, but that would mean debris in the tank water would be sucked into this area and over time would build up to the point it needed to be cleaned as once again it had become a source of pollution. However, if I pump prefiltered water INTO these backgrounds (reverse flow UGF), not only would the water remain "sweet", the area would also stay clean. This could be simply done by diverting (T junctions and taps etc) some of the filter's return water into the backgrounds. I couldn't use one of these backgrounds media as a denitrate filter, as even if I adjusted (down) the water flow (to keep it anaerobic), every time I filled up from a water change, I would import oxygenated water into the background which would kill the anaerobic bacteria required to denitrate. I'm still going to give some thought to this whole idea, but I really think it has potential. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agro77 Posted September 22, 2005 Share Posted September 22, 2005 If you sealed it complety..... Would it not be distored due to water pressure? the air would compress and then distort the shape of the design. My 2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r.d.m Posted September 22, 2005 Share Posted September 22, 2005 i would agree with the installation difficulties,its rather like giving birth in reverse!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CThompson Posted September 22, 2005 Author Share Posted September 22, 2005 If you sealed it complety..... Would it not be distored due to water pressure? the air would compress and then distort the shape of the design. My 2c ← It would be very unlikely that it could be sealed completely. And for argument sake, if it were, all you would have to do is unseal it at the top a bit. There would be no air in there (apart from a bit at the top above the tank's water level), as it would be filled with water (due to not being totaly sealable). FYI - these backgrounds are REALLY tough. It would take an awful of a lot to distort it, to the point I'd expect it to blow a seal before it distorted. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agro77 Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 He thinking the thin type of laytex.... Mind back on track now... thanks Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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