Do our cichlids need water?

[MelbBill]

In Melbourne we are at stage 2 water restrictions...and it is getting more probable that we will go to stage 4 water restrictions. In country Victoria, some areas have been on stage 4 water restrictions for quite a long time and some communities have gone to Stage X (water allocations per family for all purposes for a week).

Would appreciate hearing what people may have done given the extent of the current drought.

Has anyone got to the stage of reducing stock levels generally or even deciding which fish will be saved if water restrictions become too severe?

Is anyone worried about the availability of good clean water for fish?

[10050460]

saliva ,drool, ummmmm, tears?

[cobaltcraig]

Yep thats a good question

at what level would things like fish tanks be considered to not be filled

We dont water the garden as much as we once did

but my fish water in a water change goes straight onto the garden now

Sydney is at level 3 and will be moving to level 4 after xmas so i hear

Cheers

craig

[YeW]

Denitrating coils?

[oakes]

I am on tank water so the drought potentially affects me more than most. With the current weather patterns I am resigned to having to buy water occasionally, at a cost of about $180.00 per 5000gal.

I have changed the setup in my largest tank to fewer and hardier species to reduce the frequency of water changes. But I have to say in all honesty that this change was also due to laziness and the fact that I do find changing water quite a chore. In reality my tanks take only a small % of the water that we use. The vast majority is used in the bathroom and laundry. In most cases you will save much more water installing AAA+ rated tap fittings (if you don’t already have them) than reducing water changes.

Glenn

[Citypainter]

Denitrating coils?

C'mon Dave.

Explain.

[Ash]

it's in the FAQ section.

Also look in Craig Thompson's thread about his huge tank for making a slow flow anerobic filter with seachem de*nitrate as the media.

Slightly OT - how is the Govt down there looking to address the water shortage, desalination plants perhaps?

[huzzy]

I would like to see a Govt rebate on denitrifying coils

perhaps 90% would be reasonable....

[MelbBill]

Slightly OT - how is the Govt down there looking to address the water shortage, desalination plants perhaps?

The Government in Victoria is in election mode which means they are contemplating their navels more than usual.

The Opposition is promising a desalination plant while the Government is building pipelines all over the place - to carry non existant water from one dry lake to another. Australia is an island surrounded by water with the majority of the population within 50 km of the sea and yet we aere in a long term drought.

[cobaltcraig]

Yep but if Victoria is anything like NSW

We dont have the power to run a de-sal plant

I say more smoke and mirrors

Cheers

Craig

[huzzy]

Without getting on the green band wagon here, a salt desal plant opens a whole other can of worms. Craig is right, power is a massive issue. Yesterday was officialy the first day of summer for us....because it was the first day that the power has been off due to our grid being overloaded by air conds. I can only see this getting more and more frequent.

The second issue, is there is a lot of waste and by-product that comes out of a desal plant. i guess we could always ship it down to SA with the rest of our nuclear waste ... mwahahahah

[Rod54]

I was thinking of setting up a sump to minimise water changes as follows.....

from tank...then

filterwool then foam(mechanical filtration + biological filtration)

open water with water sprite and bamboo (nitrate removal)

ozone air stone to break down organic waste

carbon filter to remove toxic waste from ozone use...

then pump back to tanks

Any comments....ideas?

[Ash]

whopping great planted tank in the loop - tops idea.

now if you can run this planted tank from natural sunlight rather than using electricity to light it, you're on a true winner

[YAL05T]

I know its bad but here on the coast, I have dropped down to fortnightly changes on the smaller tanks and every 3 weeks on the bigger.

Once I move house the 6x2 is going planted with the sump and a reduced bio load to maybe stretch it out even longer.

I could handle a 90% rebate on the coils though.....

[YeW]

Coils are simply lengths (10-20 metres) of 5mm diamter tubings coiled up. Water is pumped through the coil at ca. 1-3 mls per minute. Along the way, oxygen is stripped from the water - the water then becomes anoxic and is the tube is colonised by anaerobic bacteria. These bacteria degrade nitrate to gaseous nitrogen (thus removing it from the system).

Coils take a while to cycle (months) as anaerobic bacteria are slow growing... but it's a potential method of minimising nitrate in the aquarium, thus reducing the need for water changes. Water going into the coil should be pre-filtered and water coming out of the coil should be run through a normal filtration system before being returned to the tank (to re-oxygenate the water).

A functioning coil can potentially remove 1-5 mg nitrate per hour.

Hope this helps,

David.

[Rod54]

Whilst water changes keep nitrate under control it also reduces the concentration of hormones and other organic waste....you can do without water changes for a long time but the build up of these organic componds significantly reduce growth rates....that's why fish grow better with regular water changes.....my understanding is it's the dilution of organic wastes that help growth more so than the removal of nitrate.

Ozone is used in marine systems in conjunction with Protein Skimmers to break down and remove organic compounds....but Protein Skimmers only work in very alkaline water....may work for Rift lake fish but I don't really know?

[Ash]

I heard they were developing it? (fresh water protein skimmers)

WRT things other than Nitrate - plants have an upper hand as they will strip phosphates & other things too.

I don't think anyone is suggesting no water changes at all, just lessening them.

a council saying you can't do a water change on your fishtank is like saying you can't give your dog clean drinking water due to water restrictions.

[YeW]

Rod -

What sort of organic wastes are we talking about? Most of the products I can think of degrade rapidly to CO2 and nitrate. Hormones would also be relatively short-lived in an aquarium with an active microbial community.

David.

[huzzy]

Im doing my bit for central coast water, my display gets a water change every 8 - 11 weeks.

My last change was at 10 weeks, and a water test with a new test kit (Hagen) revealed 0 Amonia, 0 Nitrite and Ph of 7.8.

Addmittantly its lightly stocked compared to other peoples tanks, only 30 - 40 fish. I do 90% changes, and I have zero plants.

[Rod54]

I'd suggest the technology for marine systems is far ahead of what is available for fresh water.....easier and cheaper to do water changes for freshwater tanks....but that may change soon.

I have a mate with a display marine tank in his shop that hasn't had a water change for 5 years....he just tops it up with RO water.....

[Ash]

that's a point - if corals & stuff can handle no water changes (I've heard this numerous times by the way) why can't our hardy cichlids?

between de*nitrate, purigen, a planted refugium & lighter stocking - can we make a closed (other than food & exporting plants) system?

[laurie]

anyone thought of this?... how about we reduce the amount of humans. say limit procreation? we'll all be better for it! nobody NEEDS that extra kid. a global sensis perhaps? if we are going to do something about maintaining our current situation, or improving it we need to start lowering the demand for it.. back to the whole supply/ demand thing again... treat the problem not the symptom

[CThompson]

I have an 800 litre K1 tank with 60 + mostly adult fish, tank has been set up for a year, filtered by an Oase Filtoclear 11000, the tank is turned over from memory 8 times per hour. I feed NLS twice-three times a day and I’m not stingy with it. I water change once a fortnight taking out 200 litres (as big as my water change barrel). That is only ¼ of the tank once per fortnight, with a heavily stocked well fed fish tank.

I tested my water the other day and I have a reading of 5ppm. That is after nearly a year of running.

The reason for this is that I built and installed a home made denitrate filter. This was the first time I had tested its impact. To be honest I was hoping to get zero nitrates, but then I realised that 5ppm is pretty much zero, and the fish won’t even notice it.

Encouraged by these results, I tested my other tank in the house (1800 litres), and got a result of less than 5ppm. This tank has been operating for going on what must be two years now, and is water changed once per fortnight (two weeks), taking out 300 litres approximately (1/6 of the tank). I have a Tanganyikan community in this tank fairly heavily stocked with cyprichromis, foai, calvus, petricola, sand sifters, nigripinnis and brichardi, most of which are increasing in numbers. It also has a home made dentrate filter on it.

The advantage of a denitrate filter over coils is two fold, one you can have a vastly increased water flow = greater/faster nitrate reduction than you can with a coil. And secondi, a surface area will not be a limiting factor as it is with a denitrate coil (which is hollow). Your surface area will be limited by how much Seachem Denitrate (biological media) you can pack in. Build a bigger container, get in more media.

Now, nitrate is the end result of our tanks cycling, a low or zero nitrate reading is good, but is it enough to eliminate water changes? I don't think so. There are other toxins that can build up in our tanks such as phosphates which are generally exported during water changes (though resins can also remove it). So while nitrate reduction doesn’t eliminate water changes, it certainly is a step in the right direction.

What other pollutants can people think of that need to be addressed if water changes are not done, or are greatly reduced?

Craig

[laurie]

What other pollutants can people think of that need to be addressed if water changes are not done, or are greatly reduced?

Craig

correct me if i'm wrong.... as i may well be, but what about the growth inhibiting pheremones secreted? they must break down over time of course, but into what?and aren't new amounts being added all the time anyway? what gets rid of the amino acids that make up these protein strains?? I always thought diluting them with water changes was the best option?

[YeW]

Hi Craig / Laurie -

Coils can remove up to 3mg nitrate per hour - that's fairly impressive in my book.... though obviously there are other alternatives. I've no idea which is better and have no way to judge.

Coils (and normal filters) via their microbial communities also convert free phosphorus (PO4) to various organic phosphorus compounds. Proteins break down to amino acids - which subsequently break down to ammonia -> nitrate. There would not be very much free protein in the water column (close to zero I'd suspect, in tanks with active filtration). I'd also wonder how much free P there would be (very, very little I'd guess). As for hormones and other compounds all would probably have a very short residency time in aquariums (again, assuming normal filtration levels).

Protein strains? I'm not sure what you mean Laurie.

What sort of hormones are released by fish? Do we have any information on these compounds? Are they proteinaceous? You'd imagine the aquaculturists would have some data on these issues. I wonder what the advantage may be to individual fish - you'd imagine production of these compounds (assuming they are produced) is a fairly energetically demanding task.

There's a fairly simple way of saving water for water changes in Sydney. Get a rainwater tank fitted. It seems the most logical and easy way to assist. Rainfall in most parts of Sydney significantly exceeds that in the catchment. There's rebates on the tanks... easy.

David.