Ash Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 1. Description of the symptoms, obvious signs of disease and behaviour of your fish. (wounds, nodules, erratic movement/breathing, feeding pattern etc.) First noticed yesterday during my usual fortnightly waterchange. Female texas with "swollen mouth", her lips seem enlarged. I caught her out & inspected her as I thought it might have been a fighting injury, but no wounds on the lips at that time, just enlarged/swollen. trouble eating/opening mouth. 2. List the fish that are exhibiting the above symptoms/behaviour: genus and species name. (some diseases and health concerns are more prevalent in certain types of fish) Initially just the female texas, but now the male seems to have the same thing. Female has progressed to not eating & has some fungus wounds around mouth like it's from fighting, though wounds weren't present 24hrs prior (possibly bullying cause she's ill?). Also clamped fins & a bit lifeless. Not breathing any heavier than normal. Usual fin damage you'd expect with CAs, nothing abnormal. Synspilums & juviniles of both species seem normal. Catfish (pictus & hoplo) seem normal. 3. When and how did the symptons/behaviour start? (when and how did you first notice the problem) First noticed just before/during waterchange yesterday - I believe she was fine 24hrs prior 4. How old are the affected/sick fish? (age can also be a determining factor) Unknown, est <2yrs. approx 15-17cm F & 17-20cm M 5. Have any new fish been added to the tank? (if "yes", when were they added, how many, from where did they originate and what type of fish were they?) Nil new additions for at least 4 months, except the female synspilum was recently re-introduced to the tank from a time out away from a domestic violence situation. She has no abnormal symptoms. 6. Has anything 'special' happened recently? (eg. water change, power failure, change of water conditioners/addition of chemicals, new plants/decor/substrate, treatment for other diseases, been away for a few days, house painted/fumagated, new pets, grand children banging on the glass etc.) As mentioned, water change was done after the symptoms were discovered. No other changes that I'm aware of. I've dosed with 500gm salt crystals & Alternafix. 7. What are the water parameters? (where relevant) - pH = 7.4 - kH = ~30ppm - gH = ~40ppm - Temp = 29.5c (it's Townsville, I can't lower this) - O2 content = filter is wet/dry so presumably high? - CO2 additions = nil - NH3 = nil - NO2 = nil - NO3 = ~5ppm - Metals (copper, iron, lead) = No test kit. 8. Describe the aquarium and its contents (age, size, filter size/capacity, rocks/substrate/coral type, fish and plant species still in the tank) 4x2x2 with wet/dry sump approx 30-40l of bioballs + large sponge & fine mat pre-filter - King-3 2400lph pump. Established for ~2.5yrs. River sand substrate. various pieces of driftwood & inert river rocks. Universal Rocks background (siliconed in) Also fry saver with ~150 BN fry in the top of the tank. 9. When was the water last changed and how much was changed? (include description of procedure) 75% change (normally do 60% change) fortnightly, last change yesterday upon discovering symptoms. made larger change incase of water probs. Siphon with hose to garden, then refill from same hose. Dose full tank volume with Aquastar dechlorinator at start of refill (same procedure as last 2+ years) 10. When was the filter last cleaned? (describe procedure followed) 3-4 months ago - it's low maintainence. 11. What brand and type of food has been used over the past month? (include treats/live foods/vegetables NLS large fish formula, occasional H2O stable wafers dropped into tank also. This swollen mouth thing seems to be the biggest most obvious symptom, google got be heaps of refs to "swollen mouth" = Mouthful which wasn't helpful. Will report back with more water perameters shortly. Hope someone's seen this before, I don't want to lose the whole tank edit: added water perameters, all normal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 female is near death now, thinging of euthanising. male getting worse, others still seem unaffected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D6C1 Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Im puzzeled. Could it be an internal parasite? Growth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 this fast though? the male was totally normal yesterday. it's like a person with an alergic reaction to seafood's mouth swelling up, not an external growth. could be a parasite but why only in the lips? edit: added pics. Click for larger original pic her nose is kinda normal colour & the rest of her is really dark - the flash lightened everything up a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 their "cheeks" are puffed out too, like in the light area, well in front of the gills. C'mon, any ideas at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 OK, they both made the morning - the female is now getting cloudy/slightly popped eyes but is otherwise no worse than last night, if anything a bit better (more active, slightly). The male is hiding in his cave on a hard to see angle, but he moved when the catfish came near him which is also in improvement on last night. I'd left the lights off to reduce stress & agro from other tank mates. I'm a bit worried about moving them being too much, though I do have another cycled hospital tank if need be but being like 50-70l less I don't really gain anything by shifting them - presuming whatever it is has already spread to the tankmates without symptoms yet. Synspilums are still totally normal, actually kind of looking like they are going to spawn in the next few days - so that would imply the water is good, right? Cause the cloudy/pop eye I thought was a sign of poor water quality & by extrapolation pre-water change there couldn't have been more than 20-30ppm nitrate - totally normal for pre-water change in this tank & something they'd be used to. Also with salt & Alternafix in the water, you'd think any fungus related stuff (like cloudy/pop eyes) would get better, not worse? There is a lot of tannins in the water, but there always has been with this tank. I dunno whether this is some freak fighting injury with way more repercussions than normal or something more sinister. Does anyone have any ideas or should I just persist with salt/alternafix & hope? I have protozoin on hand if it's likely to help with the eyes poping/clouding - cause this is a new symptom!! Can't that be because of bacteria behind the eyeballs? perhaps they are in the face swelling it too? I don't like medicating for the hell of it, I like to be sure it'll do more good than harm so could someone give me an opinion on this? edit: also with the BN, pictus & hoplo - should I be going 1/2 strength? I guess so for the pictus but the other two have scales so not to worry about them? cause I'm happy to sacrifice the pictus with the full dose if it cures the other fish, but not so happy if it kills every catfish in the tank. Again, I await advice. edit2: Doh! Myxazin is the one for cloud/pop eye (bacterial stuff), Protozin is just for the smaller stuff (protozoan & fungus). Well they seem slightly better activity wise, so maybe the salt/Alternafix just needs longer to work. Still, any suggestions would be appriciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D6C1 Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 Sorry Ash.. Im keeping an eye on this post... I have no idea... I would possibly try moving the fish into the hospital tank and perhaps medicate it or salt it and keep it covered as to reduce stress.... Do you have a UV light that perhaps you have plug up to polish the water even more? I cant belive you aren't getting replies.. Surely someone here would know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted November 8, 2006 Author Share Posted November 8, 2006 no UV unfortunately. I've already salted & Alternafixed the tank they are in & if it's bacterial (which I'm leaning towards) then I'd rather treat the whole tank to make sure the others aren't affected, seeing as it appeared to spread from one to another in 24hrs. I'm starting to think it's a weird progression of normal pop eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted November 8, 2006 Author Share Posted November 8, 2006 added pimafix to the mix, it supposedly works well together with melafix. edit: also isolated them. weirdly enough the female who looks much worse (and was the first infected) is much more active than the male. Any ideas on what meds to order online? Myacin any good for pop eye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted November 8, 2006 Author Share Posted November 8, 2006 male is no more, female is more active but really looks like crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbeer Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 Damn - I take it no one here knows anymore than you do. I guess that is a comfort in that you have done all that could be done. Hopefully she pulls through. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted November 8, 2006 Author Share Posted November 8, 2006 female dead this morning, luckily it appears to have only affected the texas pair, a couple of their fry that were left in that tank are fine. I'd still like a better idea on what to treat their tankmates with - all I've used thus far is Alternafix, Pimafix & salt, which did approxamately less than 2/10ths of stuff all. Sucks that the only stuff available locally is white spot cure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D6C1 Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Sorry to hear that Ash, at least you did all you could in such a short time span. Funny it affected only the texas pair.. Is it something that a texas is prone to? Just a thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted November 9, 2006 Author Share Posted November 9, 2006 Not that I've heard of - I should get onto cichlid-forum about it & ask in their new world section. I'm guessing it was an internal bacterial infection similar to pop-eye, except it killed them in 2-4 days instead of a couple of weeks like pop-eye takes. I threw both bodies out without thinking of getting cultures done - touch wood the other fish don't have it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Just thought I'd bump this for other people's benefit... I found a lot of references to swollen lips on Cichlidforums (not cichlid-forum) and they basically said treat with a broad spectrum anti-biotic, even then there wasn't a high survival rate. There was also mention of Myxazin being effective in some instances so when my mail order of it turns up I'm thinking of treating the Texas' old tank "just in case". I absolutely don't want to lose my Synspilums (who reside in the same tank, still no symptoms though they are closer to spawning now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citypainter Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 It seems to be a frak. I've never heard of it b4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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