F1 Petrochromis trewavasae

[MoliroMan]

i heard on th US forums that it isn't unusual for Ps to eat a lot more than Ts so i don't think u need to worry.

u just need to keep up the filtration and water changes to keep the nitrates down!!!

that P in the 1st pic has one long sh*t!!!

your pics are so good no one believes u took them mate.....we want to see more pics from Catherine!!!

[waruna]

Thanks Dave, I haven't been posting my pics properly, I realised it last night. When I link them from my photo album I haven't been using the original copy, all this time I have been linking the preview. Now I’m going to cry

Can you see a difference with the one below and the third pic?

Cheers,

Waruna

[spedwards]

At first no, but of a closer look the final is much sharper. I'd say definately start posting the finals for that little extra quality

[WAZ]

Only difference that I can see is that you put YOUR name on it instead of Catherine's.

[waruna]

Only difference that I can see is that you put YOUR name on it instead of Catherine's.

Very Funny mate, do you want to tell all the Tropheus lovers here what you did with your Tropheus??? Let's see who's laughing now

Thanks Jon

Cheers,

Waruna

[parrdog]

What happened Waz , you were so happy to get those guys.

Jamie.

[WAZ]

lost the bloody lot .................they just died, one at a time, three days apart. It was getting to the point I was dreading coming home from work each third day.

I am at a loss as to why they died, water was fine - they were eating fine, no over aggression and no white poo either

Each carcasss was assessed before sending out into Botany Bay - no bloated bellies - no fin damage.........such a shame.............as they were beautiful.........and so active.

[parrdog]

I'm really sorry to hear this Waz . Maybe someone else can shed some light.

Jamie.

[MoliroMan]

Hi Waz,

sorry to hear of your loss.

i had a similar incident with my 31 F1 German import Golden Kazumba.....whatever treatment i thrown at them - metro, tetracycline, kanamycin, Clout, antifungal, antiparasitic agents i kept losing the colony. Only 4 survived from that colony. I wasn't sure if it was bloat, i thought maybe it was gill flukes or something like that. I strongly suspect they were already sick before i actually got them....

where did u get these guys from?

Will u ever venture into Tropheus again in the future?

We will gladly sell u fry to get u started again?

Dave

[waruna]

Hey WAZ, if you tell us what you did with them to start with, we may be able help find what went wrong.

Cheers,

Waruna

[matt]

Hey all

Ive just been reading over this post, and though Im not a tropheus/petro keeper I had some thoughts which were kind of interesting regarding some of the treatment stuff that was mentioned.

Okay here goes. Would the osmotic balance of a fish affect whether it is more effective to treat a disease (any disease) by food soaked in medication or by treating the water. Im just trying to remember how it works. I think with FW fish the fluids inside a fish are saltier than the water in which they are swimming therefore water constantly enters the body of the fish by osmosis to equalize the salinity. Therefore, FW fish have to constantly excrete water to prevent themselves from literally exploding. I think I have it the right way around. Would this mean that as water enter the fishes body by osmosis a treatment in the water would be "forced" into the fishes body also? Or would it literally only be water molecules entering the fishes body. This could actually depend on the nature of the treatment ie. some molecules might actually attach themselves to a water molecule and be drawn through the fishes body along with the water. If this is the case then treating in the water would still mean that the medication is entering the fishes body.

Im just postulating but I thought this might be an interesting discussion?

Also im just curious is bloat actually a disease which is contagious and is caused by a bacteria or parasite or something similar? Or is it more purely a mechanical thing ie. algae eaters have a long skinny gut because algae is hard to digest and things like too much protein, too much stress stuff up their digestion and it literally gets a physical blockage?

I hope this creates some interesting discussion.

thanks

Matt

[Guest parallel]

Didn't WAS/VIS mentioned they ate all the B/N fry?

Cheers

Parallel

[MoliroMan]

Matt,

i think the issue is the normal over the counter metronidazole is not very water soluble so not much of it will dissolve in the water and be absorbs through the skin to be absorbed by the fish.

but i use instead dimetronidazole which is water soluble and i believe the drug gets into the fish both subcutaneously and via the gastrointestinal tract since fish due drink water.

Bloat is caused by first physical obstruction due to indigestible high animal protein foods, leading to the fish's own parasites overgrowing, leading to secondary bacterial infection and then bowel perforation, septic shock, multi-organ failure and then death!!!!

And Yes it is contagious so u need to treat the entire tank.

And if a fish has bloat it is not going to be interested in food and feeding them metro soaked food will be a waste of time.

Ideal treatment would include and antiparasitic and antibacterial agent.

Parallel...i think Vis was the one who had his tropheus colony eat up the bristlenose eggs.

[matt]

Bloat is caused by first physical obstruction due to indigestible high animal protein foods, leading to the fish's own parasites overgrowing, leading to secondary bacterial infection and then bowel perforation, septic shock, multi-organ failure and then death!!!!

So im assuming that one fish may get a blockage, causing parasite infestation etc. and then the increased numbers of parasite larvae in the tank cause other fish to start getting infested and so on?

Also, I dont think FW fish would make any effort to drink water. It makes no sense. As I explained before FW fish are constantly expending energy to excrete water which enters their body via osmosis. For a fish to then go and drink water would simply be increasing the amount of energy the fish needs to expend to excrete water. Although since fish live immersed in water (dah) I assume the gut would have to be exposed to the same concentration of medication as the tank water just due to water being taken in at feeding time etc. I assume the gut is closed by a sphincter most of the time except when feeding.

matt

[MoliroMan]

fish do drink and excrete water as urine...u just don't see it!!!

also i don't think drug absorption is as simple as u describe it.....it involves active transport mechanisms since many drugs are also charged molecules and may not cross cell membranes unless via an electrochemical gradient or some active transport process fueled by Na/K-ATPase..

other routes such as intraperitoneal or intramuscular have been tried as well.

if u are interested u can pay $US20.00 to access this article on the pharmacokinetics of drug absorption in fish.

article

[waruna]

G' Day Matt,

Very interesting input.

Also im just curious is bloat actually a disease which is contagious and is caused by a bacteria or parasite or something similar? Or is it more purely a mechanical thing ie. algae eaters have a long skinny gut because algae is hard to digest and things like too much protein, too much stress stuff up their digestion and it literally gets a physical blockage?

This explains it best:

Bloat is not only common in Malawi Cichlids, it is also prevalent in tropheus and many Tanganyika Cichlids. In most cases, fish food is the culprit. Many proteins used in fish food derived from soybean meal and left over seafood such as white fish meal, shrimp meal(ground shrimp head).These types of protein have poor digestability & absorption rate. Consequently, pathogenic bacteria start multifying inside the intestinal tracts, doubling their population every 20 minutes resulting in bloat. The fish usually linger on for a few days before dying. there is another kind non-pathogenic bloat that occurs by feeding too much in the evening just before the light is out. Insufficient oxygen condition for metabolic activity force the fish to gasp for air. The fish usually die the next day with bloated stomach. In my opinion, high level of protein is not the cause for bloat, it is poor digestable protein that is the cause for bloat. How do I come to this conclusion? We use tropheus moorii, a herbivore notorious for bloat, as a test subject. We fed the fish NLS (34% protein) as much as they can eat with lots food left over ( this is an experiment, not normal practice). We never encountered bloat problem in 6 years, In the past, we have lost thousands of tropheus using commercial feed. In my opinion, krill, fish, algae, are the most easily digestable protein. Protein derived from soybean, feather meal, blood meal, left over seafood with too much bones are not easily digestable. Ash content greater than 10% indicates left over seafood is being used.

Dave, very good explanation mate. As far as Bloat being contagious? I have serious doubts about this. I think if the rest of the fish are healthy they can some what fight it. I have heard people say they lost an entire colony of fish for bloat, but I have never experienced it. No matter how good a food is, if the water quality is not good or if the fish are fed the wrong amount/wrong size pellets and if the fish are under a lot of stress, they could get Bloat.

Cheers,

Waruna

[MoliroMan]

Hi Mate...when u see bloat running through your tanks linked by the same mini-reef filtration system then u will have no doubts it is a "contagious" condition.....not that this has happened to me but what i have heard.

i guess it could be the same stressors are experienced by every fish in the tank be it high nitrates, high level aggression or poor quality foods.....then all fish will eventually succumb to bloat and it may appear it is spreading to the entire colony.

however, i do believe some individual fish have a better developed immune system and no matter what u throw at them they never develop bloat.

[waruna]

when u see bloat running through your tanks linked by the same mini-reef filtration system then u will have no doubts it is a "contagious" condition

It certainly will look that way, if all the tanks are connected as you have described above, I'm sure your regimes (feeding/water quality) would be pretty much the same on all of them, if something goes wrong it would definitely affect every one/the whole setup. Even though it may appear to be contagious, it may not be the case?

You could be making one mistake and it would affect everyone. I’ve never had this problem so I cannot say for sure, personally I don’t think it is. About six or seven years ago, before I knew what was Bloat about and when I had a few fish die of Bloat, some tank mates pretty much lived for much much longer, and those days I didn't even treat for Bloat. I did go in to extra lengths (eg, making my own fish food) to care for my fish. Lesson well learnt but for a huge price. When fish die, how often do we blame ourselves or get to the bottom of it? Most of the time we call it a mystery.

Cheers,

Waruna