Ant Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 http://ace.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15852 Have a look at this post: Can people please express their oppinions. Is it a myth? Is it a separate disease? Let us know what you think. Please post here and not in the FAQ. Hopefully we can make a decent FAQ discussion about the topic. Thankyou Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ged Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Also have a read of Eaglebarret's problem a couple of weeks ago. It may add to the discussion. http://ace.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15234 Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod54 Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I have just been through a treatment process for a Pelvicachromis taeniatus that stopped eating and wasted away.....unsuccessfully In hindsight I believe he had an internal bacterial infection...TB? Whilst I used all the treatments tri-sulphur,salt baths,sterazin etc,etc I now believe I should have tried stronger antibiotics. A brother and sister who were initially sick also...now seem healthy In the end it appears wasting can have a number of causes....but generally fish with worms don't stop eating...they stop putting on weight. He also had no ulsers but reacted strangely to light and died with a twisted body shape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I'm still hving problems when i thought it was all fixed. the syptoms i notice is that they want to eat, but then spit it out, then they get lethargic after a few days, i'm into my second course of sterazin and kinda lost to what to do next. It seems that the only fish that are getting it are young electric yellows and a saulosi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted April 17, 2005 Author Share Posted April 17, 2005 Yes fish with worms don't stop eating for a while, but they do stop eating when the disease advances. This is when the disease is irreversible. This can happen after a week or even a couple of months. Anthony :smile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ged Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 I think "wasting" can be caused by a number of different things and worms are one of those causes. Other causes can include flagellated protozoans. There has been a bit of research on Spironucleus vortens and Cryptobia iubilans in cichlids and their effects. One of the symptoms of these is wasting. Spironucleus usually responds well to metronidazole administered in feed or as a bath. The recommended dose in feed is 1% (4.5 grams active drug per pound of feed) fed daily for five consecutive days. Currently, there is no effective treatment for Cryptobia. Part of the difficulty may be that the parasite seems to have an intracellular stage. Part of the immune system of the fish are macrophages, these are phagocytic cells and normally engulf foreign protein like Cryptobia to destroy it. Cryptobia has been known to live within these macrophages rather than be destroyed. Most chemicals can not penetrate the cell walls of macrophages so are ineffective. Some people have used a sulfa drug (sulfadimethoxine) that seems to help control mortalities in some cases, but has not eliminated the parasite. I don't think that one can always put "wasting" down to worms. Anthony it is a really good discussion that you have raised because it makes you think. Well it has made me think Ged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Ant, the first signs i notice are them taking food in their mouth and spitting it out, doing this several times before they give up on the food, would this be from the worms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted April 18, 2005 Author Share Posted April 18, 2005 They may have lost the ability to swallow the food perhaps, or they have simply lost their appetite??. I'm no expert on letosoma so i can tell you wether they are just fussy eaters or if it is worms causing the problem. The reason i say that it could in 90% of the cases be worms of one form or another is because they are more common than people think, and because people often only treat once and prematurely come to the conclusion that it isn't worms because the treatment didn't work. Yes i've always been concerned with this issue Ged, hopefully we can come to some sort of conclusion. So far i am proposing that most of the cases of 'wasting' are worm related. Would you agree? or would you say it is too hard to tell because their are a lot or other possibilities? Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 The other thing is, is it a good idea to isolate a fish showing signs to prevent it spreading?, because that is what i have started doing to prevent anymore fish getting infected. SO far i have lost 2 and got 2 possible infected. How do you tell if a fish has worms before they stop eating?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted April 18, 2005 Author Share Posted April 18, 2005 Sunken stomach or thin appearance, fish may be off colour and some times you can see the worms in their poo after eating. I have also noticed the fish can become very agressive, i'm not sure if this is a symptom but it is something i have noticed. If i can think of any more things ill edit this post. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Wasting disease is not a myth as I have seen it happened to my S.fryeri and C.leptosoma. I have seen some fish that continue to eat but never gain weight and eventually die from hunger. I have tried treating the whole tanks with large doses of Metronidazole over a week as suggested by some articles with no success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted April 18, 2005 Author Share Posted April 18, 2005 My point is, that cases such as yours Oracle could be being treated wrong. Tape worm is the most common cause of wasting in my opinion and needs to be treated with Praziquantel. Your fish in my opinion were likely suffering from a case of worms, and thats why they were 'wasting away' and thats why your treatment didn't work. Also fish with Tape Worms will continuously eat and still lose weight. This is because worms are another form of parasite. By myth i mean, is it a generic term given to fish who have worms? I have no doubt that it is not as myth, (i chose my words incorrectly). I just think the term 'Wasting away' is used very loosely and in many cases the disease goes untreated or people use the wrong medication. Metronidazole treats diseases such as Internal flagellates which is less common than Tape Worm. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Ant, i have not seen any of those symptoms apart from going off food, and perhaps going a bit off colour and a bit lethargic. I have considered water quality but everything in that department is fine, i am still convinced it is worms as my first death showed all the signs. Wouldnt the sunken stomach come later down the track as the worms advance? Will isolating possible sick fish stop it spreading? My main concern is the whole tank will get wiped out. If the fish have stopped eating should i euthanaise them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted April 18, 2005 Author Share Posted April 18, 2005 Yes you are right, the fish doesn't neccesarily have to have a suken stomach to have worms and the fish is more likely to have sunken stomach when the disease is advanced. Worms aren't neccasarily contageous. But i have found that if one has it there is more of a chance that other fish may have it. So it is up to you. If you want to be sure your other fish don't have the disease then treat the whole tank (appart from bottom feeders). If You want to try and treat your individualised case then go ahead, as i said worms need not be contageous. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 I am treating my whole tank as a precaution anyway, the isolated ones are prob to late to save as they are not eating at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted April 18, 2005 Author Share Posted April 18, 2005 Hopefully we can get some more oppinions Dave. What i have said so far are my views. Someone may have differing oppinions. But this is the best information i can give you on my own knowledge base and experience. (All be it i have limited experience. Except for the fact that i have worked in an LFS and have had experience regaurding this topic). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Admittedly I have never tried treating the sick fish with Praziquantel as I don't know where to get them easily (whereas I have a stackful of Metronidazole medication which I bought while I was overseas) and most of the advice I got suggested intestinal parasite being the cause of the problem. Wish it was straight forward though when it comes to treating these diseases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anchar Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Wish it was straight forward though when it comes to treating these diseases. Amen to that! Half the problem is correct diagnosis in the first place...then determining the appropriate course of treatment....and finally, locating the required medication...sooooo hard and very frustrating Andrea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted April 18, 2005 Author Share Posted April 18, 2005 Very true. My first reaction is always to treat with the Praziquantel (which is an aqua master product). If that doesn't work then i would take further measures. Although to be honest, every case of this iv'e seen myself has worked without taking further measures apart from cases where the fish were too far gone. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ged Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 I have added another "Wasting" topic from the old forum archives. http://ace.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15970 Once this discussion has been completed I will merge all the relevant topics into one topic in the FAQ. Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 how do u know when they are cured and that there are no worms that could re infect the fish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OscarTerror Posted April 28, 2005 Share Posted April 28, 2005 hey guys, just reading through all this and I have a couple of oscars that while they're not wasting away they do have the white and stringy poo, I have been able to get my hands on a script of flagyl and have been advised 1 tab per 20L What is the best way to treat the fish? I have been told to just treat the water and some others are saying to mix it with food? I like the sound of the food mix as it seems more direct but not sure what to use Cheers Az Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kemst Posted April 28, 2005 Share Posted April 28, 2005 This week I lost an electric blue who (apart from getting skinny and looking pretty sorry) was eating until 'the end'. I didn't see any evidence of worms and all my other fish seem ok. He was pretty cool even if he was still a young un'. I hope the others stay well..I didn't medicate the tank (other than melafix) because I didn't really know what was appropriate. Everyone else seems ok for now...hopefully it was just something only he had. I am pretty stumped as to what it was. He got pretty skinny near the end. Not pleasant watching a fish waste away....especially as it seemed for no apparent reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colfish Posted April 28, 2005 Share Posted April 28, 2005 hi guys go back through the dwarf forum. kribbie done a good job of dissecting a krib with a worm problem, even has macro pics. maybe if some one does this with their next loss, it may go a step closer to identifying the problem just a thought; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted April 29, 2005 Author Share Posted April 29, 2005 This is the thread i think your talking about: http://ace.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15791&hl=worms This thread also has some good info: http://ace.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic...1&st=&p=entry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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