MoliroMan Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Hi Guys, I have been wondering if i have been overdosing my Tropheus with Seachem Tanganyika buffer? I was advised by someone very trustworthy to use 24 teaspoons of buffer into a 220L drum of water, by dissolving 4 teaspoons each day for 6 days to achieve ideal breeding conditions for wildcaught tropheus. I know my tropheus r not wildcaught but i am sure they would benefit from the high kH that reflects Tanganyika conditions but the only problem is i am going through buffers very quickly! The instructions indicate 1 tsp per 40L, but i am giving 1 tsp per 10L which is 4 times the recommended dose. The pH ranges from 8.5 - 9.0 and the Kh is usually 16-18. Also the fish r looking very healthy! I also add Seachem Cichlid lake salt as per instructions 1 tsp per 40L. What do u guys do? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Personally, i wouldnt have even considered dosing it that high, as thats what the instructions a for. but on the otherhand, if the fish are nice and healthy, why change? If i were you perhaps cut the dosage down slightly and see how they go. and see whether such a high dose is necessary. I'm just surprised that you could dose it 4 times the recommended dosage. Regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foai Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 If anything, I strongly recommend under-dosing your fish. I did a water change last night and put in the recommended amount of salts and buffers for Tanganyikan tanks. Sadly I now have 4 dead Altolamprologus Sumbu Dwarfs in my tank. I am really angry. I hate to lose fish at any time but especially these little fellas. My advice is be very very careful to slowly increase the amounts of salts that you introduce to your tanks. The label can often be very misleading. Cheers David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Dave I use 1/2 teaspoon to 10L. My Kh stays at 15. I can tell when the Kh is getting low as the trophies lose their adult colors. Mine arent breeding though, so it may not be that good a gauge. Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 the best thing to do would keep adding it slowly to the tank after or drum and test the kh untill it gets to the desired level then add the water to the tank and test the tank the next day and see if it is at the level you want if not add a little more untill it is but like foai said directions can be very misleadingso give it a go and see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colfish Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 hi Dave do you use a substrate that assists with the buffering.? do you check the levels in the tank before you mix the next batch, is it actually droping? [that sure is a lot of buffer powder,]hmm must ring stockbroker,buy Seachem shares] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoliroMan Posted February 15, 2005 Author Share Posted February 15, 2005 THanks guys for all your replies! I may try Josh's suggestion of halving my buffer usage to 1tsp per 20L instead of 10L since all these buffers might be doing damage to my precious Tropheus. It would be good to hear what others do especially those who keep Tropheus. Eaglebarret, i was thinking since the fish r OK i should just leave it alone but i just bought a 20kg bucket of buffer and that cost me a heap of money so i want to question my practise and hopefully am not throwing money down the drain. Foai, thanks for the warning....sorry to hear of your loss. Maybe u should check with the person u bought it from how they buffer the water. I have had no cases of bloat as a result of adding buffers. Bucky, your suggestion sounds really good but i just hate checking my Kh..i just have no patience to do it! Colfish, i have coral sand as substrate but it doesn't keep the pH/KH up to my desired levels. I think they would slowly drop after a week just before my water changes. From pH 8.2 to 7.8. But with the buffer regimen i use now, the pH is more stable and stays above 8.5. I think it was partly due to overcrowding and waste build up. Must go and buy some Seachem shares! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazimbwe Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 A couple of things... There has been an increase in concentration of the salts, maybe the buffer too, in the last couple of years so this may have not been considered in the advice on dose rate that was given to you. The 2 substances(Salt & Buffer), do not and ,should not be mixed together as it reduces the effectiveness and inhibits the water reaching its maximum potential for Tanganyikan-perameter replication. I have found it better to add the salt to the tank 24hrs before adding the Buffer...if I had a huge water storage drum I would dose the water in that with the salt and then add the buffer to the tank after the water change. The Tropheus tanks here are GH-19 & KH-10. I have crushed coral as substrate and limestone as rocks. Untreated, with Seachem, tanks are Gh-11 & KH-4 using Silica-Sand and limestone rocks I gotta say tho, I would not be overdosing with the salt or buffer. It is designed by Seachem to replicate the lake conditions as closely as humanly possible(so far)...so their instructions would be based on acheiving those ends. I have also never lost any Tangs when using the Salt/Buffer...including Alto's. I have lost Alto's due to Temp change resulting from a waterchange with unheated water. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crabros Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Hi Guys, I have been using seachem when it first came in Oz. There were 3 of us playing around with the dosage rates half our tanks were with the instructions on the product the other halves were tested with diffrent levels of gh-kh buffer. I found that fish were not breeding as well with what was on the label. The best performance was when I went 1 level teaspoon per 20 litres. Now I have all my tangs in water of 10-15 gh 8-10 kh. I have xenos,tropheus,foai,alto's,Gnathos and they are all happy. I know everyone tries to get there water so close to perfection like the lake but the fish have been through so many water changes to get here it's not funny. So could this be the reason so many of us have problems breeding fish or are the fish getting used to the water quality here in Oz. I dont think the importer cares so much about adding salts or buffers to the water when importing them. I swear by the seachem product it does bring the fish into color and you get bigger mouthfuls in my opinion. But there are other less expensive ways to do it but this choice is left up to you guys. Im just doing what works for me. Thats my opinion Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I use 1 gm per litre marine salt and 1 teaspoons per 25lr of tang buffer. I also have shell grit in a medium bag in the canister, the KH is around 8 dkh. I will update you on the GH as i've never tested it. I was using 2 tea spoons per litre tang buffer but i found this was too excessive and my feather fins didn't appreciate it, since i have dropped the dose my fish are showing signs of breeding in the near future, this correlates with Crabos's findings. Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Dave you can drop it down a bit to 15 degrees. I have done that with all my lake tang tanks to try and save on the buffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoliroMan Posted February 16, 2005 Author Share Posted February 16, 2005 Mazimbwe.....i have learnt the hard way when i use to mix my lake salt with the buffer....the water would precipitate out and would take ages to clear! How much buffer do u add to get the desired kH. R your Tropheus breeding with the kH of 10? Crabros....i have also noticed that my Moliros show better colour when i add more buffer. But lately with the current dosing of 1 tsp per 10L they r looking quite dark in colour. I thought it may well be due to overcrowding since only the dominant male and female shows good colour but it may well be due to too much buffer? I might half me dosing and see how things pan out. Adelaide Ant.....2 tsp per litre!!!!! Luckily u didn't get any casualties! I think i will try the 1 tsp per 20L. I know they recommend kH of 16-18 for wildcaughts but my Tropheus r F1 so should be ok. I haven't noticed any increase in breeding activity so i will try reducing my dosing. Nigel....how much buffer do u add to achieve a kH of 15? Is that for wildcaught? Do F1 also need kH of 15? As an aside, how is the deal with Mark (Zamarky1) going? thx Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I am putting about 20 teaspoons to 220lt. If you bring it down through your normal water changes this is the best way to do it. Even a little more wont hurt and yes thats for what ever Lake Tangs I have in the tanks. As for Mark he is still in the UK so when he returns to Zambia we will start work on getting shipments from him. He knows what he has to do so I guess its all in his hands now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazimbwe Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 How much buffer do u add to get the desired kH. R your Tropheus breeding with the kH of 10? MoliroMan...All I do is add my salt to the tank after each water change and then 24Hrs later I add the buffer. I only add salt/buffer for the water I have changed, which is about 3tsp, and there is no problem with the Ikola or the duboisi spawning/holding. The mixing, before adding to the tank, of the salt & buffer is something you only do once isn't it?! Looks bloody horrible and seems to never clear...like you dropped ½ a cup of flour into the tank. Do you wait for long, after adding salt, before adding the buffer or do you add the buffer and then the salt later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Maz the reason it goes cloudy is because you are not supposed to add all the buffer at once. I add 6 teaspoons to 220lt per day until I reach the KH I am after. That way the water does not go cloudy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoliroMan Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 Nigel, So i should just stick to 1tsp per 10L as i did before? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Dave you can experiment with the drums if you like. Try 18 teasppoons to 220lt and do a KH test see what you get. The problem with KH is that there are other elements that control it as well like the amount of oxygen in the water. If you are trying to save on buffer just add less to the drums. I dont think the fish will worry to much as long as any change you do is done slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoliroMan Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 Mazwimbe...i actually do as Nigel does. I actually fill all my drums with water and add prime on day 1. Day 2 i add the required amount of lake salt and then over day 3-6 i add 6tsp of buffer each day. This way i have never had any precipitate! Nigel....i think i will just stay with 20 tsp of buffer in 220L of water. How much lake salt do u add to this volume? I think my Tropheus r worth the expense of buffer! By the way Nigel, has Mark given u any idea what Tropheus sp. he has available? thx DAve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 No worries Dave what ever suits you. As for the Lake Salt I dont add much at all because I am not trying to breed the fish. I only put in about 10 teaspoons I used to use about 18-20 when I was breeding years ago its not as critical as the buffer. When I have them in quarantine I dont put any in there only the buffer but thats only for two weeks. I dont know what Tropheus Mark has got I guess he will get what ever you ask for. I do know that Toby Veall has about 50 types on his list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazimbwe Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 hmmm...yeah, thanx guys. I do not get the cloudy problem owing to the way I treat the tank. As I said, if I had a big storage drum I would add the salt to that and get the water ready but I haven't...so I make do with what I got. I agree that the Tropheus are worth any extra costs that buffer/salt might add but maybe a control tank with the recommended dose of buffer and salt and another, with the same species of Tropheus, with your special-mix will answer the question best. I mean if there is no obvious or clear difference why give Seachem the money? Realistically, 1tsp per 10ltr is 4 times the recommended dose...if the trial tells you that it makes no difference then you might as well put the cost of 3 extra treatments in your pocket. That alone may make it worth your while(I do not know how many tanks, colony's, etc you are running to determine if the extra work/cost would be worthwhile) depending on how much beffer you are using...if it saved you 10kg of buffer a year, or even 5, that is quite a bit of money as I am sure you know. I am looking forward, very much, to seeing what will be available in the future Nigel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoliroMan Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 Nigel....that is a lot of lake salt for 220L. I only add 5 tsp to my 220L drum. Does adding more (18-20) promote breeding? I thought Gh was less important? Are u able to get any Tropheus direct from Toby? Is it possible for u to show us that list of 50 Tropheus? I hope u can get over some in the future. There r so many variants i would like to have! Mazimbwe...i change a total of 600L of water per week which adds up to a lot of buffer! I might try to reduce the amt of buffer i use slowly and see if it makes a difference. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 I am working on getting a shipment from Toby at the moment. As for the list there is every Tropheus you can think of and more. The problem with some of them is its just there location and I have no idea what they look like. Dave if you send me an email I will send you the complete list of them and you can try to find photos of them if you like. As for the lake salt dont worry about it to much. The reading for the lake at peak breeding time is 220ppm but I dont think it is that critical. As long as you have some its ok the important part is the KH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Hi Guys, Dont forget that the concentration of Seachem salt has changed - when Nigel was breeding tropheus he had to use much more than what we use now with the new formula regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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