Eaglebarret Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Just wondering what are the consequences of inbred Africans?? I have a few trios of fish that are from the same bloodline, should i swap the females for another bloodline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trent Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 yes i would definately change either the male or both the females Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ged Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 It depends if you look on line breeding as a form of inbreeding. When you are line breeding you are looking at strengthening a particular trait in your line. This form of breeding requires the breeder to have a good understanding of desirable and undesirable traits within the species. The problems associated with inbreeding include; (1). weakened body metabolisms (2). hereditary diseases and (3). congenital abnormalities such as spinal problems and loss of finnage. These problems can occur if you breeding stock display undesirable traits and you don't take steps to cull them as breeders. In a way it goes back to the debate on the quality of our fish and the level of culling of offspring that took place a couple of weeks ago. If you are not looking for these problems and continue to breed from them then these undesirable traits will occur more frequently and weaken future generations. In your situation if you are uncertain on the source of your breeding stock to begin with then the introduction of an outcross (new blood) would probably be beneficial. On the other hand if they are from good bloodlines in the first place keep what you have and be aware of the problems. Where did you get your fish, a LFS or a Cichlid Enthusiast? Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted February 9, 2005 Author Share Posted February 9, 2005 I got my ones all from the same LFS and i would say they are very good looking specimens compared to some that i have seen in other LFS. I have always bought my live stock from this store as i have never had a prob and it is run by a very big cichlid enthusiest. The fish look very healthy, No loss or dulling in colour etc, so does this mean a new blood line may not be necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 A single generation of sibling inbreeding is generally pretty harmless. Problem being, who is to say the parents of your siblings werent siblings also, and their parents? IMO it is best to acquire fish from 2 good quality sources and take male/s from one source and female/s from the other. This is not always possible though, and it is therefore important to weed out any undesireable fry and cull them mercilessly. If the fish produce many 'culls' in their offspring I would look to outcross some bloodlines immediately. Generally this is easiest by sourcing a new male to put to a harem of females. Males are generally cheaper and more easily available as adults too, as breeders dont like to part with females in a species where a single male might service a dozen females. Linebreeding is another issue altogether and generally requires a hefty degree of inbreeding, but at the same time, the importance of crossing out every few generations to iron out any inherant problems developing in the new strain should not be underestimated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted February 9, 2005 Author Share Posted February 9, 2005 So in other words, i can leave my trios as they are and if they start producing many poor offspring or culls per holding, then i should look at getting a new bloodline in. If culls a minimal, i should just leave it and make sure any dodgy fish are culled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepperfish Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 What LFS did you get your fish from? Was it Reef Aquariums in Hornsby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted February 10, 2005 Author Share Posted February 10, 2005 No never......It's in parramatta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hungsta Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 Interesting topic guys. Can someone provide me some more info on line breeding? Article maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted February 10, 2005 Author Share Posted February 10, 2005 Yeh thats not a bad idea hungsta, i wouldnt mind reading more on this. Are there any links to this kinda info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeW Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 Guys - Line breeding is breeding an animal (or a plant) within a line in order to establish/enhance/perpetuate a desirable trait or multiple traits. It's selective breeding really, see here: http://www.biology-online.org/2/12_selective_breeding.htm Outcrossing is VERY important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted February 10, 2005 Author Share Posted February 10, 2005 Ok thanks for your help guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hungsta Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 Thanx Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakeyBoyR Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 Just to clarify, line breeding takes generations to do effectively. It also takes a keen eye and a lot of dedication and technique to produce quality offspring. I've never done it myself but I have read some info about it and I am under the impression it is not the easiest thing to do in aquaria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted February 10, 2005 Author Share Posted February 10, 2005 Na, i dont plan on doing it, just some basic breeding and see what happens... i just want to make sure the fry turn out well and get rid of dodgy fry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ged Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 Line Breeding is a systematic approach to inbreeding. The process essentially requires you mate your progeny back to the original male and female. The first cross has half the genetic material from the male and half from the female (50/50). The best females are mated back to the original male and the best male is mated back to the original female. The next generation thus has 75/25 proportion of either the male or female line. If the process is continued with no outcrossing after 6 generations the male and female lines whilst not 100% as the original parents are deemed as close enough to being 100%. Normally an outcross is introduced at generation five. This outcross alleviates some of the problems faced by this type of breeding. It also provides something similar to hybrid vigour without crossing species. The following diagram gives a good representation of the process up to the 3rd cross. If the offspring from a given generation are mated together you end up with 50/50 offspring again. I will find some additional information and post it when I get a chance. Gerard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatoscarlover Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 Thanks ged interesting read Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglebarret Posted February 10, 2005 Author Share Posted February 10, 2005 Thanks heaps for that info. I prob wont get that into it just yet but it is certainly worth knowing for future referances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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