gH and kH

[Scienceman]

I'm just trying to establish ranges for my tank and have been given advise by LFS and seen various articles on WWW but would prefer actual experience.

I have a Malawi tank at pH 8.0.

What would you consider the optimal kH and gH?

[YeW]

Scienceman -

For most rift lake cichlids this isnt critical. A shell grit/coral sand/limestone substrate is (IMHO anyway) more than sufficient for 85% of these cichlids.

HTH -

[catcher]

Sorry to high-jack your topic scienceman,

G'day Yew, do you mean that you don't check kh and gh parameters at all in your Malawi tanks? I was always lead to beleive that keeping these values correct cut down on problems in the tank. If the general consensis is that these parameters are not of much concern, I'd love to drop the testing and addition of Bi-Carb or Epsom salts depending on what shows as being needed.

glenn

[crabros]

Hi there,

I dont use shell grit/coral sand/limestone substrate I use botony sand in all my tanks my gh is between 5-7 and my kh is between 2-5.

I use Seachem salts and buffer.

I dont check my ph at all.

HTH

Brett

[MikeWs Fish]

I was very lucky and when i bought my 1st tank i also picked up a crate of dead liverock for around $5/kg. I just put a piece or 2 in every tank and let the rest take care of itself. All my established tanks have breeding colonies in them and even some of the newer tanks which havent been around for more than a week or so.

[Chilli Powder]

mmmm.. kh of between 2 and 5 deg? I was always led to believe that the kh should be around 10 deg. thats 179ppm. My gh is also around 10. Any thoughts about the statement that lower KH will produce more of one sex of fish.. I know this happens with kribs in nature...

if I don't need to do this well...saves me money.. How about Aquasonic salts? I was told that it may have higher concentration of the standard salt? Any thoughts?

See the thread I started on my forum on water parameters

[Scienceman]

There seems to be a wide practical variation.

I have coral sand and when I add the Rift Lake Water Conditioner (Aquasonic) as recommended on the bottle I get a gH of 20deg (360ppm) and kH of 4.5 (80ppm).

I was told that the gH should be in the 11-22deg (200-400ppm) range but the kH should be higher at 6.5 - 8 deg (120 - 145ppm).

So subsequently I have been adding Carbonate Hardness Generator (Aquasonic) to bring this up to 7deg (125ppm).

I am pretty happy with the gH but was really wondering if the kH needed to be so high? As this helps buffer the pH I was worried that if it was not high enough I might be supseptible to a pH crash if something goes wrong in the tank.

[YeW]

Scienceman -

I dont check either kH or gH, ever - with a carbonate substrate it is totally unnecessary IMHO for virtually all malawis and most tangs.

I dont add any buffers either - just the substrate. Does it work? - well all of my fish (except my fussy J. regani) breed just fine in this water. I've not had any unexplained deaths since I setup my fishroom (more than a year ago now) so I guess that speaks for itself.

Some ppl will tell you that brand name salts/buffers are essential. They are wrong. You can add buffers/salts (and moreover, should do if you have a neutral substrate (as Brett (Crabros) does - see above)) - but otherwise in my experience they equate to a total waste of money.

In saying that - I strongly believe that for sensitive species: Tropheus, Cyps, some featherfins and sandsifters etc these buffers (a DIY version of which is available in the forumFAQ) may be of some value.

[YeW]

as for pH crashes: some thoughts... firstly these shouldnt really happen in tank with a buffering substrate - if there are acids in the water these are quickly neutralised by the dissolved carbonate (upon which more carbonate dissolves into the water from the substrate).

Remember also that often in cases of emergency, high pH is FAR worse than closer to neutral pH. Why? Because less "ammonia" is present as ammonia (NH3) (it's present as its relatively harmless otherself ammonium NH4+).

What causes pH drops?

1. lack of water changes do (as you get lots of nitrate which is acidic)... again, if you have a buffered substrate this helps here as the carbonates buffer the water.

2. Uneaten or rotting food and/or dead fish also release ammonia (see my caveat above on why a higher pH is bad in this case).

ps: one degree of pH may not seem like much, but its worth remembering that 7.8 is 10 times less alkaline than 8.8 - the pH scale is a logarithmic one. For more info on ammonia toxicity / pH / temperature relations see: http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html

Just to answer your question Glenn - kH (and pH) are both of GREAT importance - but the former doesnt really need to be monitored religiously.

[Scienceman]

I guess you can use the coral sand to buffer but this will eventually run out and need replacing and would not provide other salts and trace elements.

I think ideally we should be keeping conditions as close those naturally occuring in the lakes as possible. There seems to be quite a wide range in the wild which helps explain why we can use different conditions and get happy breeding fish.

I did a quick internet search and this is the range I got for water conditions in lake Malawi. (for ppm X17.9)

KH - >5, 6-8, 6-8, 14, 10-12, 5-7, 8.5 degrees

GH - 4-6, 6-10, 11-14, <22, 14, 4-6, 4-6, 10-20, 14, 4-6, 10-17 degrees

So what is correct? Who knows!!!!!

[crabros]

Hi Guys,

I believe that the kh is more important than the gh.

I use seachem as it is a very good product and I have bred lots of diffrent species with it. I am not going to fix something that is not broken. There are alot of diffrent products salts and buffers out there but Ill stick to seachem.

I find that I get better color in fish and bigger mouthfuls when I use seachem.

Thats my opinion

Brett

[catcher]

Hi Yew and Brett,

This has turned into a very good thread (informative), I also have believed that if the substrate is correct the parameters should take care of themselves, but, have always been reluctant to stop adding bi-carb or epsom salts incase i was totally wrong. I run a crushed marble substrate, providing I keep the water changes regular (as I do) would you both say that water parameters will stay generally in the correct zones? I remember speaking to you one day Brett when I bought a display maylandi from you and you said you didn't look at pH but monitored the kh and gh. Does that still ring true?

I'm not putting you both on the spot but I'm sure many hobbiests would love to take one more thing out of the equasion that they don't have to worry about.

cheers

glenn

[Gav]

I have found no need to test hardness in the whole time I have kept cichlids. I have never had too much trouble breeding them, so it mustn't make too much difference.

currently I have marble chip as substrate in many of my tanks, but use seachem malawi buffer at the recommended rate with every water change. started off as an experiemnt but found positive results when using it, so I kept doing it.

as for pH, well the buffers keep that at a good level I would guess. I occasionally drop some indicator in water and its always bluish which means its something over 7.6 but since I don't have a high end pH tester, I don't get more exact than that.

[crabros]

Hi Guys,

With my tanks gh stabilizes without much flactuation. So if you say you keep your hardness at 10 gh it takes along time to drop even after water changes.

Now with kh it is a diffrent story I use alot more due to waste breakdown,fish waste ect ect.

I keep records of all my tanks when water was changed ,temp,gh and kh even when the filters are cleaned and if you add salts and buffers there is no need to use ph test kits. They are a waste of time and money in my opinion. When you add the buffer or salt your ph will be high. Above 7.6 all the time.

I dont even use the formula on the side of the packets of salts or buffers as your kh and gh will go through the roof.

Experiment with the product until you think you have the desired results time will tell if your fish are breeding or not.

I have fish here now that if the gh or kh is too high or low they will not bred hence that is why i keep records. I record when fish bred also and what the water conditions where.

HTH

Brett

[YeW]

Brett -

I'm interested to know which fish are picky about kH - I've not found any yet - but you seem to keep rarer malawis than I.

All of my tangs (which includes some sandsifters) have bred with my substrate (no added buffer) only system. This is also true for all the malawi's I have ever kept. I've added buffer in the past - but have come to the conclusion, one based only on the fish I keep, that it isnt necessary.

BTW: I would agree that for most rift lake cichlids gH is less important. For some south american cichlids though, high gH can (allegedly) make the egg surface (or the sperm swimming to it) nonreceptive and can lead to clutch after clutch of infertile eggs.

Dave.

[catcher]

Hey Brett,

Are you talking about using both Rift buffer and salts from Seachem.

Or just one of them?

cheers

glenn

[YeW]

Glenn -

Without pre-empting Brett I would guess he would use both products (most ppl do).

What fish is it that you are trying to breed? I cant stress enough that, at least for most species, there are better ways to use your money.

HTH -

[Ant]

I have only recently started using sechem tanganyikan buffer on my tanks (for 6 months) because the prior owner of the fish also used it, i felt it to be appropriate to match the conditions. Although the initial cost of the buffer is a little expencive I have found once you have some sort of buffer in your filter/substrate you don't need to add much of the seachem buffer at all to new water to keep the same KH value (although when setting up you need to add a fair bit). So 1 container goes a fair way. To use the same rate as the container states is excessive as its designed to maintain PH of 9.

So in the end my point is:

A) that i feel it is important to match the conditions of the previous owner (breeder)

B) While the buffer is expencive it can go a long way if used conservatively

Anthony

[crabros]

Hi Guys,

Yes I do use both salt and Tang Buffer of Seachem on both Tang and Malawi.

I find Tang buffer stabilises for longer dont know why.

Dave the fish that was a pain in the but was Ps msobo. When I got the buffer kh right they went off it took 3 years to bred them buggers.

Another one is Psuedotropheus elongatus bee they are a pain also. Ive had about 12 different types of fish that wouldnt bred until I played around with the buffer.(kh)

HTH

Brett

[catcher]

Hi Yew,

I'm not a breeder as such, my fish seem to breed with the conditions I have them in. My questions really revolve around not having to add product to the water if possible. I have only ever used bi-carb and epsom to change parameters.

glenn

[slinky]

well i uses seachems malawi buffer, ands its seems to be doing its job pretty well u dont have to worry bout ph gh and kh to much when using this product, it seems to keep everything in check, initially its pretty expensive, but in my opion they last pretty long.

[BaZ]

I use a crushed marble substrate like Kinerata does, and I also add Seachem salts when doing water changes. I dont add any powdered buffer, I find the substrate does a good enough job for me.

I no longer test my hardness, especially when it's evident my fish are all happy, healthy and breeding.

[YeW]

Hi Brett -

I'm not doubting they (msobo) are tricky ones to breed - I've heard that from others also. Could it simply be, however, they take longer to mature than most mbuna? Or need a specific spawning trigger eg: low barametric pressure, cooler water change (ie: simulating rain etc), specific food types, or something else equiweird.

Without running a "control" group without adding buffer it is difficult to ascertain whether the buffer does anything to get msobo in the mood for some mbunal oral sex .