Starting out with Cichlids

[roo]

Hi All,

I am about the enter the world of African Cichlids, This is my first ever post and tomorrow I will be picking up my first ever fish tank (1300 x 410 x 610H) I have spent the past 3 weekends building my tank stand.

After doing a heap of research my understanding is that I can set up my tank with the following:

Sand and and slate (I can get clean black slate for nothing) for substrate and rocks

Ehiem professional range filter

Java fern

Black background

I am a little unsure as to the type of heater to get and the price of the Ehiem professional. After reseraching it appears that if I could afford to get the professional model then I should, any opinions would be apreciated.

[folkner]

Welcome to the World of Cichlids. For the heater probably just go a 300w heater assuming that it is going to be in your house. Jager is a good name brand but it is up to you how good a quality you want to buy. Age of Aquariums do 300w heaters for $12 at the moment so having a spare doesnt hurt either. You shouldnt have too many hassles with heat anyway coming into the warmer months.

I unfortunately cant give any advice on the price of the Eheim. I was more interested in your choice of the Eheim Professional and if you need something that serious on your tank. Dont get me wrong, The Eheim is the Rolls Royce of cannister filters but are you buying it because everyone has said that was what you should get or because money is not a concern and you want the best. If it is option number two then good for you, but if it is just opinion from the ACE do some more research as even an Aquaclear 500 would do fine on that size tank and can be sourced for $99.00. I would love an Eheim on every tank that I own but my budget doesnt go that far.

Hope this helps!

Regards Folkner

[roo]

thanks Folkner,

Money is always a concern However I am happy to pay what is required in order to ensure that all goes well with my new tank. I would rather not spend the big bucks on a filter if it is overkill. I am also of the belief that I need to turn the water over approx 5-6 times an hour is this too much.

[folkner]

It is not a bad idea at all to have good water flow and the fish seem to enjoy the exercise of a good stream of water. I must admit however that I am no expert on flow requirements and I have always tried to just go for 2 or 3 times an hour with my tanks and even that is a big bit of flow in my opinion. I havent had any dramas with that on freshwater tanks.

I suppose one thing that you will see everyone agree on is that you cannot have too much filtration and the Eheim Pro is going to go great guns if you go down that track. In fact if you are not confident it is probably a real safe filter to get because you cant go wrong with it and it can be used if you get the cichlid bug and want bigger tanks down the track. Hang out a bit also on this post and see what others say to your comments. Everyone here loves to help and will try and steer you in the right direction

Cheers Folkner

[cobaltcraig]

Hi Roo

And welcome to the wonderfull world of cichlids

Firstly try our sponsors for your equipment they will all look after you

As for a heater I would personally steer clear of the jaeger brand untill

the company can ensure that you get what you pay for

the cheaper alternatives are good options atm

Roo are you in sydney as the nswcs has its upcoming auction and there

is always a bargin to be found there

Please let us know what size of eheim you have chosen

Cheers

craig

[Chester]

Hi Roo, I personally have an Eheim Professional II and would like to recommend that you go for a cheaper alternative. As with all Eheim's the flow rate is considerably lower than what you would get by buying a cheaper brand canister filter.

The Eheim Professionals looks fancy but they don't filter 100% of the water that goes through it like what the Eheim 2215 and 2217 do. This is because they use media baskets. Using baskets to hold the filter media means that some of the water travelling through the canister will go around the media that is meant to be cleaning it.

If you really must get an Eheim I would go for the 2217 if I were you. Much cheaper and does a better job. Although it is a bit more difficult to clean.

HTH.

[roo]

thanks for the replies.Thus far, I haven't chosen anything yet except my tank size and tank stand.

As for all the other stuff, I haven't decided on anything as I am in the looking stage at the moment and trying to understand and learn as much as I can before committing myself.

I am trying to be patient, and so far so good. I have spent a heap of time reading and visting LFS, I am in Sydney.

[Lepperfish]

Welcome Roo,

You'll learn alot here, these guys are a knowlegble bunch..

Do you know which african cichlids you want to keep yet?

[roo]

no idea on the types of cichlids yet, I have my L plates on in regards to that. But I will have time to learn while my tank is cycling.

[Lepperfish]

What are you going to cycle it with? Goldfish ?

[Mazimbwe]

Hi Roo,

welcome to the hobby...I am sure you will be bitten and turn into fully-fledged Cichli-phile B4 too long.

CTTR, has given you the right tip about the Eheims. I have a Pro2 and while it looks flash and is easier to clean it doesn't do a better job than the 2217's I have. You can make the 2217's easier to clean by making your own Media-bags, I use The Cook's old stockings tied in a doubled-over-bag, so you just pull them outta the canister and wash them in tankwater when ya do a water change. The best filter Eheim have is the 2260...so if money is not a factor and you want the best go for that...Less than $700 if ya look around.

The Slate should be fine...never had it but I remember a few members here do use it. Rather than just sand, I would say Crushed Coral if you can get it as it buffers the water for you. Course Pool Filter Sand is another good substrate and cheap too...I find fine sand gets into your filters too much.

Plants will depend, IMO, on the species of fish you get...some are merciless on plants, no matter what.

Tank size sounds OK...tho it is a pity that it is higher than it is deeper(front to back), and will let you choose some nice fish.

Current and filtration are often mixed up together but they are, to some extent, independant factors to consider. Eheim's 2260, for example, does not have a high water-flow rate but the huge capacity, in the canister, for media means it offers excellent filtration. Likewize the difference in flow-rate between the 2217 and the Pro2 is negligable but the 2217 uses the media better and so offers better filtration(as I see it).

It should be easy enough for you to get yourself a AC300 and an Eheim 2217 for less than you will have to pay for a Pro2, if ya shop around, and that way you will have all the filtration and current that you will ever need. That should turn your tank over about 7-times per hour(at least...which is over-kill) without creating a whirlpool effect in the tank. It also offers you Back-up filtration and the ability to be versatile, allowing different filtration without having to crack your Canister.

Just an idea tho.

HTH

[Flashgordon]

Hi Roo, I personally have an Eheim Professional II and would like to recommend that you go for a cheaper alternative. As with all Eheim's the flow rate is considerably lower than what you would get by buying a cheaper brand canister filter.

The Eheim Professionals looks fancy but they don't filter 100% of the water that goes through it like what the Eheim 2215 and 2217 do. This is because they use media baskets. Using baskets to hold the filter media means that some of the water travelling through the canister will go around the media that is meant to be cleaning it.

If you really must get an Eheim I would go for the 2217 if I were you. Much cheaper and does a better job. Although it is a bit more difficult to clean.

HTH.

Wow, what an interesting opinion.

What volume of water are we talking about here that the Pro does not filter? 1%,5% 10% and how do you quantify that?

And can you tell the difference in water quality between a tank filtered with a 2217 and a Pro?

I have had all of the different form factors of Eheims over the years and I'd have to say that I think the Professional is just tops and does a fantastic job. Media baskets make handling the media superbly easy and enable me to service a filter in 5 to 10 minutes versus 30 to 40 minutes for a 2217.

As for the 2217 filtering all the water and the Pro missing some, that is a matter of opinion. it really depends on how carefully you have the media placed in the 2217. In my opinion it is very easy to lay the media badly in a 2217, which will have the same effect, not all water will touch all media all of the time. And lets face it, if it does not get filtered this time around, it will be done next time.

As far as I can see the Pro i an expensive filter which does a superb job, but that is just my opinion

[Cannula]

A couple 500L/h HOBs for about $50 on sale and your away.

Cheap, alot of filtration and service one each week allowing bacteria to be cultured in at least one filter. I'm a cheapskate, but it does me. I even use my own filter media, green dish thingies and a permeable bag tied off with filter carbon in it.

[Chester]

Hi Flashgordan,

What volume of water are we talking about here that the Pro does not filter? 1%,5% 10% and how do you quantify that?

I have an Eheim Pro II 2128 which is rated for use with tanks up to 600 litres. Now if the filter is rated for up to 600 litre tanks then you would expect it to go fine with a 450 litre (4x2x2) tank. But it does not. If you look even closer at the specification you'll find that Eheims filter circulation rate is only 750 litres per hour (although it has a pump rate of 1050lph). I am well within their specification for using this filter on my tank but it is only turning over the water less than 2 times an hour.

I also have an Eheim 2215 that is rated for tanks up to 350 litres but I actually have it on a 415 litre tank and it does a lot better at keeping the water clear.

And can you tell the difference in water quality between a tank filtered with a 2217 and a Pro? 

My Eheim Pro II 2128 is basically useless at removing small particles after a couple of weeks use. And I have to include an internal power sponge filter to cleanup the junk that the filter cannot get. Whereas the 2215 I have remains fine for months after cleaning.

Any filter that is designed with filter media basket is doing so just for convenience. The Eheims media baskets don't have rubber seals on the outside and that means that the water is going to choose the course of least resistance. Which of course is around the media baskets. That can't be good can it? Whereas the media in the Classic range of Eheim filters (2215, 2217) is packed right up to the side so there is no way even little particles can escape the media.

Maybe we will have to agree to disagree. But to me the Classic range that Eheim has is just as good and probably better than the equivalent Pro II filter but over $200 cheaper. And as Mazimbwe says, you can use stockings (or buy filter bags) for the 2215/2217 which works better than the media baskets anyway because they take the shape of the canister that you put them in.

And Roo, don't let anyone convince you to spend $200 more (or almost twice the price) when you don't have to.

[Ant]

Nothing wrong with the Aqua Pro 1200 cannister that go's for $100. But yea your talking chalk and cheese. Welcome to the forum you'll be an addict (Cichlid Addict..lol) in no time.

Anthony

[roo]

thanks a lot for your feedback,

I picked up the tank, It looks good. While the tank will do the job and looks great , the joins leave a bit to be desired.

Ended up painting the back blue as I hunted around for mis-tinted paint at the hardware and found blue. Much cheaper.

Now I just have to get the filter and heater then "enjoy" the cycling process.

Once again thanks for the advice.

[Flashgordon]

Hi Flashgordan,

What volume of water are we talking about here that the Pro does not filter? 1%,5% 10% and how do you quantify that?

I have an Eheim Pro II 2128 which is rated for use with tanks up to 600 litres. Now if the filter is rated for up to 600 litre tanks then you would expect it to go fine with a 450 litre (4x2x2) tank. But it does not. If you look even closer at the specification you'll find that Eheims filter circulation rate is only 750 litres per hour (although it has a pump rate of 1050lph). I am well within their specification for using this filter on my tank but it is only turning over the water less than 2 times an hour.

Mate

so many things to argue about.

Lets start here - if throughput is king in filtration, e.g. the number of times the water is turned over an hour, then you should throw away the cannister filters and invest in the HOB filters, they pump water at a huge rate and they are comparatively cheap. But realistically, in my experience these HOBs excell at mechanical filtration, but having little surface area for biological filtration are not nearly as well designed or suited for this task. (although with bio-wheels and other such devices attached to their outputs even this is changing........ )

Now as far as I am concerned, the most important filtration task I want carried out in my tanks is biological - I want huge capacity in there to convert ammonia etc to nitrate. Particularly with slightly less robust fish such as Tropheus (less robust in the sens of being more sensitive to water quality). And that is where cannister filters excel. They allow the water to pass through large quantities of filtration mass which has been colonised by the various good bacteria. Frankly the longer the water is in contact with the biological filtration material the better, IMHO. (And this is the basis for the Eheim numbers, they recognise that primary filtration task as biological not mechanical.)

So, I guess it is horses for courses - if your main task is mechanical filtration and you care passionately about the throughput per hour that I concur the 2217 will probably do a better job. But if you are most concerned about ammonia and nitrite free water, then maybe not.

[BlakeyBoyR]

Hey Roo! Welcome!!! I hope you know what you've got yourself into Cichlids are addictive!!

I used to own a 2217 and it was fantastic. It did a great job at filtering although it WAS a bit of a pain in the rear end to clean. On my 36x18x18 I used to use a 2217 with a Resun 2000lph internal power filter and my water was crystal clear and nitrate free I'd personally suggest the 2217 with either a HOB (hang on back) filter or an IPF (internal power filter). Between the two your water should be nice and clean. Remember to always buy within your budget, you dont want your hobby becoming a burdern

Regardless of what avenue you take, welcome to the forums and good luck getting your tank cycled and filled!