onlyme Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 What do people think is the right amount of apistos in say 50 litres ? Seeing that it appears impossible to cycle a tank ( at pH 6.0) as you would with rift lakers, are stocking rates to be that much lower than high pH fish? Or am I doing something wrong? Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbeer Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Hey Craig, I think right amount of fish is based on space the fish need. In a 50 L tank I reckon 1 pair only. There is not enough room to set up a harem. Could try two females depending on species. I have read typically males need a couple of square feet for a territory and females around 1 square foot. As far as the cycling issue is concerned, I hope some of the experts drop by with an answer. I don't measure much in my tanks. HTH Stephen p.s. What apistos??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anchar Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Hi Craig, I'm not quite sure what you mean by this statement... Seeing that it appears impossible to cycle a tank ( at pH 6.0) as you would with rift lakers, are stocking rates to be that much lower than high pH fish? Surely you would cycle any tank in the same manner, regardless of pH? Higher stocking rates would actually contribute to lowering the pH (through larger quantities of urea, which is acidic). I agree with Stephen that a pair of Apistogramma spp. in a 50L tank is sufficient. Can you please be more specific? merjo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme Posted April 12, 2004 Author Share Posted April 12, 2004 Hi ya Merrrr, my understanding of the biological process is that the 3 H+ ions coming from the NH3 in the formation of NO3 is what lowers the pH of alkaline tanks utilising the the usual nitro/denitrofying bacteria. The comment you quoted refered to my limited experience with acid tanks and fact that after 5 weeks I am still getting 4~5 ppm ammonia (ammonium) readings. Also nitrite readings are zero indicating there is not the usual bacterial action I was expecting. Your comments on the inertness of various gravels at different pH would also be greatly appreciated? Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anchar Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Hi Craig, Unfortunately my bio-chem is a little rusty but I'll give it a go. Freshwater fish continually excrete ammonia (NH3, which is a base) by way of solid waste and urine (also some is released via the gills). Without getting too technical, NH3 have a "spare" pair of valence electrons which form a bond with H ion (which is sourced from the dissociation of a water molecule). Hence: H2O + NH3 = NH4+ + OH- In this equation the H2O and OH- form a conjugate acid-base pair, and the NH3 and NH4+ also form a conjugate acid-base pair. NH3 is a very strong base; conversely, NH4+ is a very weak acid. When the above equation is achieved, the system is said to be in equilibrium, ie. there is no excess of NH3, and the tank no longer has toxic ammonia. The ammonia/ammonium will not play a part in affecting pH if the system is in equilibrium (with reference to NH3 and NH4+) as they "cancel" each other out. Urine is composed of about 96% water, 2.5% nitrogenous wastes (primarily urea), 1.5% salts and traces of other substances. Freshwater fish live in a hypotonic medium (where the osmotic pressure or solute content is less than that of the fish). Therefore the water continuously enters the body by osmosis. Fish excrete a large quantity of dilute urine. Nitrate (NO3-) and nitric acid (HNO3) are a conjugate acid-base pair. HNO3 is a weak acid, and it's input alone does not significantly alter the pH in an aquarium. If your ammonia is still around 5ppm, I would suggest a partial water change and the additionof some Nitrivec or Cycle. Are you using a "cycle" fish to provide the Nitrosomonas with "food" so that the ammonia will be converted to nitrite? I'm assuming that since you have ammonia, then there is organic debris composition occuring. It seems to me that you do not have enough denitrifying bacteria in the system. Does this help ? merjo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 What do people think is the right amount of apistos in say 50 litres ? Seeing that it appears impossible to cycle a tank ( at pH 6.0) as you would with rift lakers, are stocking rates to be that much lower than high pH fish? Or am I doing something wrong? Craig. Dear Craig, The appropriate number of Apistogramma in 50 litres is two. Not for reasons of nitrification but, rather, social compatibility. In such a small environment, more than but one pair will be problematic. Good luck! Randall Kohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducksta Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 I have always been of the impression that the nitrafying (??) bacterias would not exist in an acid system, and that ammonia etc was not toxic in these conditions so "cycling" was redundant, and its all about water changes. Is that wrong? It worked for me for many years breeding angels with huge success, and to a lesser extent raising discus, but I gave up before i ever spawned them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anchar Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Hi Ducksta, It is true that ammonia is less toxic in low pH environments.....however I don't know that this makes "cycling" redundant . merjo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeW Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Duck - I'm almost certain that's wrong . The bacterial communities in your filter will most likely differ considerably... however, the process works more or less in the same way . Keep in mind that nitrifying bacteria use ammonium as well as ammonia. It is also worth pointing out that even at pH 8.5 (at 27.8 C) you still have 80% of the "total ammonia" present as ammonium . For more than you ever wanted to know see: http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme Posted April 13, 2004 Author Share Posted April 13, 2004 Did I understand this right that it requires a bacteria to convert NH3 to NH4+ ? Is it not just ionised as a result of exsesive H+ ions ? THanks guys, I appreciate all your imput. One thing for sure acid water biology is not understood as is rift lake water !! ) Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett4Perth Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Hi Craig, Merjo's chemical equation is correct, but no bacteria are involved. H2O + NH3 <=> NH4+ + OH- Good link of Yews, shows why any detectable ammonia/ammonium is bad. This indicates inadequate biological filtration. Good Luck Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anchar Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Hi Craig, There are a number of processes involved in cycling a tank. The ammonia dissociates in water and produces ammonium ions. The bacteria does not make this happen....it is an automatic process which occurs when ammonia reacts with water. However, the system will contain both ammonia and ammonium ions, and it is the action of bacteria that converts the ammonia to nitrite. Sorry I wasn't clear about that...I should have said that these conversions/equations are happening simultaneously. merjo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme Posted April 13, 2004 Author Share Posted April 13, 2004 THanks Brett, am I right in thinking this process is not sufficient to detectably effect pH ? I still think it strange that no no bacterial action is present evident by the absence of N03+ Thanks, Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett4Perth Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Hello Craig, I am not sure why your tank is not cycling, you have raised ammonia/ammonium levels and no nitrite. What about nitrate, is it possible that you missed the nitrite peak and it is now all being efficiently converted into nitrate. Are your nitrate levels in the tank higher than the levels in your change water? If they are then your tank has cycled but your filters are not coping with the fish load. Fish urine is very diluted, yes, but it is still mildly acidic. It will result in a fall in pH if there is enough of it. Cheers Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme Posted April 15, 2004 Author Share Posted April 15, 2004 Good idea Brett! Hagen's test showed very low NO2 maybe zero and Aquarium Pharm's test did show zero. I am convinced there is no bacterial action taking place. I originally bought a trio of the following; A. cacatuoides, viejita and sp. Pandurini. I lost 2 of the Pandurinis so i purchased another trio and lost 2 more. So now of the 6 I bought I only have 2. No losses in the other species. The pH is stable at 6.1, kH unmeasurable and general hardness is 2~3 degs. I use rain water from a clean source ( pH 6.9 gH zero, as you would expect). The tank has 2 corner air driven box filters and I know they work because they get dirty. A week ago I added a little internal power filter, about 30 lits per hour to see if that made a difference, it did not. The tank has a profilication of java moss and 2 little annubias. The funny thing is that even with NH4+ at 4~5 ppm the fish are well coloured, eating well and starting to be territiorial. A few people have said to me that at pH 6.3 or lower nitrification stops and similarly with kH below 60ppm. I got cunning and tested the water the fish came from the LFS in, pH 6.0 or lower (bloody re agent doesnt go bellow that, a decent test meter is very much on the wanted list as is a conductivity meter. Anyone like to voice the pros and cons of TDS versus conductivity? ) kH <1 deg gH < 4 and guess what ?? ammonia 0 !!!!! The stocking rates of the LFSs tanks were what I based my little tank on so this proves the bacterial break down of ammonia can happen under such conditions! I dont use peat because I in fact have to add Seachems Equilibrium to add some gH and also I use their acid buffer to get down to 6.1. Maybe the loss of the Pandurinis is related to the absense of humic adic? I attempted to cycle this tank as I do with rift lake tanks and immunise the tank with existing healthy tank ornaments and a little gravel. This may also have been a mistake and it is evident that different species of nitrosoma and nitrobacter would prevail under these conditions. Do bacteria interfer with one another as do virus' ? I am setting up a 100 lit Baz tank to lessen the load on the 50 litre they are currently all in and I now realise the cacs require a different set of water perameters than do the Pandurinis. I suspect this will solve my immediate problem but doesn't answer the question of cycling acid tanks? If any thing changes I will report back. If you have read so far, thanks. Sorry to make this such an epic!! Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett4Perth Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Hi Craig, I am afraid some of your logic seems faulty to me. Shop ammonia/ammonium = 0, yours is 4-5ppm. Do you really need to look any further as to why your fish have died? Some fish are more sensitive to ammonia than others. You still haven't mentioned nitrate(NO3) ... is it higher than the change water used? My tanks all run with 0 ammonia/ 0 nitrite / 0 nitrate , but I can assure you there is heaps of bacterial activity going on. What do you mean by nitrification? The nitrogen cycle still works in acid tanks, and to my knowledge is just as efficient. As Yew said, the species of bacteria doing the job may not be identical, but it works the same way. "Do bacteria interfere with one another as do virus" ... huh! Conductivity vs tds ... what would you like to know? Cheers Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme Posted April 16, 2004 Author Share Posted April 16, 2004 THe ambient nitrate in my water supply is undetectable. Sorry, in the last post NO2 should have read NO3, . Nitrate and nitrite in this tank also appear to be zero. When you say some fish are more sensitive to ammonia do you mean individual fish or species? I would imagine the answer to this one is both! Virus' predate on one another, do bacteria do the same? Seeing there is no denitrification taking place I would assume the bacteria I seeded the tank with is gone. Conductivity or TDS, other than the way the information is offered what is the difference. Is one of more use than the other? Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 My tanks all run with 0 ammonia/ 0 nitrite / 0 nitrate WOW....I doubt that any of my tanks read less than 10ppm Nitrate! I think I missed something...what does conductivity and tds (well tds in relation to nitrates I guess...but conductivity???) have to do with tank cycling? giz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeW Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Craig - While I have no idea why your Apistos died (they are sensitive little fish! - so who knows it may have been stress)... acidic tanks cycle in exactly the same way as basic ones. The bacterial communities may differ - and it may take you longer to establish the appropriate communities if you are seeding from a very basic tank... but otherwise the process is the same . HTH - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme Posted April 16, 2004 Author Share Posted April 16, 2004 THanks Dave, you're a good man!! THe death of the 4 Pandurinis is not worrying me, as you say, sensitive fish do kark it for no apparent reason. What is worrying me is the 4~5 ppm ammonium, and no production of NO2/NO3. I would have thought it impossible to have zero mitrates too? There are systems for getting rid of it, plenums, coils etc, but it is the final product of de nitrification and must be present in some concentration. TSD = total dissolved salts. Pure water does not conduct electricity, when you dissolve salts in water the free ions do conduct electricity. Both of these test measure the conductivity in micro semens I think? It a bit like the test for gH. THanks to all for your help, Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett4Perth Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 Hi Craig and Giz Low fish load + lots of plants = 0 nitrate. Plants will also remove ammonia from the water. Sorry Craig, I don't know why your tank is not cycling, but it is not because it is acidic. Virus' predate on one another This is incorrect and while some bacteria can kill others, that it not the problem. Hope you find the cause Cheers Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme Posted April 17, 2004 Author Share Posted April 17, 2004 Maybe predate is a poor choice of words, Virus do have some effect on one other. The concept of "interferon" is based on this fact. The Russians discovered in the late 1940s that some virus' could reduce malignant tumors in humans. The research has been patchy over the years probably because no one can figure out why, but it is an observed fact. There was a story on one of prime time TV infotainment shows in the last few weeks about a woman with breast cancer being given massive amounts of influenza virus to interfer with her malignancy. In saying all that, my tank still is showing no signs of bacterial action, and it is really bugging me. As I said in an earlier post I will set up another tank in a very similar way and observe the results. It is all very interesting. Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme Posted April 18, 2004 Author Share Posted April 18, 2004 Been giving some of these things a bit more thought and although my logic is OK there are a few very wobbly assumptions mixed into the brew. ! ...and yes Brett, being a keeper of Malawis first I forget about plants and people who keep sensible numbers of fish in tanks. I do have another theory, so where there is hope there is light. Anyone else use Seachems acid/alkaline buffers in this sort of situation?? Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme Posted April 24, 2004 Author Share Posted April 24, 2004 HHooooooorrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyYYYYYYYYYYyyyyyyyyyy !!!! This morning when I looked at the tank and did the tests I got a low but positive nitrite reading. So, finally we can assume its cycled !!!!!!!!! Again thanks to all those who contributed to this one. Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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